I think it's funny that you overlooked vans like most people do. Vans make more sense for way more people than trucks and SUVs do. But they have a huge stigma attached to them and people don't want to look uncool.
Except vans aren't actually all that efficient, compare a Toyota Hiace VS Hilux, or ford Ranger vs Transit, and they are very similar in size and economy, with the Hilux actually being more efficient than the Hiace.
The biggest reason so many people have utes or pickups where I live is for towing, and the ability to carry five passengers and have luggage in a separate compartment.
I drive a van for work, and I'm well aware of how practical they are, but it only has one row of seats, can't tow bugger all, and would get stuck on wet grass.
There's plenty of work vans that are designed for a full 5 person crew. Vans can also easily tow whatever is needed for that crew, if the van was specced for it. It's like not all vans were created equal and thus there are vans out there that are not like your van.
OK, but what's the advantage? If the van is the same size as an equivalent pickup, how is it the better option?
And what model of van can carry five passengers and tow 3.5 tonne?
The Toyota Sienna can apparently tow ~~3.5 tonnes~~ 3500 lbs and carry 8 passengers. Average mpg while not towing is 36 too.
But most people don't tow anything ever and a van would be just fine.
It can tow 3500. 1.5 tons and that isn't a lot. Not as much as an SUV with a towing package and not even close to a 1/2 ton truck.
My b, 3500lbs. Most families aren't towing anything though. I'm not going to disparage anyone with a truck who needs to tow or haul a bunch. But there are people who don't tow anything and complain about midsize SUVs not having enough space for their family but balk at the idea of a van.
Clearly I'm not most people then.
This is potentially more specific to the US, but I imagine even if that is the case it probably affects everyone else by proxy at a minimum.
One of the big problems with trucks and SUVs is that they are not subjected to the same safety regulations as cars. They have high ground clearances, high noses, stiff suspensions and frames, and so on, and these things make them extraordinarily dangerous in a collision. That being said though, they might be necessary in very specific circumstances, for example if you are going off road and/or towing very heavy loads. If this applies to you regularly, like for work, buy a truck and drive it in good conscience. It is a tool fit for your purpose.
But if you are like most people, you don’t regularly tow heavy loads for work, and you don’t regularly drive off road, but maybe you do need to carry around lots of stuff and/or people, and spacious van might be more suitable. And with that comes a softer suspension, lower ground clearance, and a sloped nose that will make the van much less likely to kill people in a collision
For me the biggest advantage is that vans fully enclose their cargo: good against climate and less likely to lose stuff to theft.
For towing capacity, this article gives 3 models that can tow 3.5 ton: https://www.vanarama.com/blog/vans/van-towing-capacity-chart-whats-the-best-van-for-towing
Seating can be however you want it to be. Vans are also used as mini buses, so all seating configurations in between no passengers and all passengers are possible.
Those are all bigger in every dimension than a ute though.
So, I repeat my question. How is a bigger, likely less efficient vehicle an improvement over a ute? Especially considering they can't travel off road.
Also, lockable canopies are commonplace where I live.
Yeah, moving goalposts now are we :D
I could try look up a smallish van with high towing capacity, it's probably not even that hard to find, seeing how easily I found multiple vans that fitted your earlier criteria, but somehow I know that I'd be wasting my time. You'll grasp at any straw and think up any rare scenario to justify your belief in trucks.
Trucks have their applications sure, especially for gardening/farming or other mobile crews that can benefit from having that mobile open bed near them, but for most work crews, vans are the better solution.
My girlfriend's sister has a van she uses for Vanlife™ and that big stupid piece of lumbering shit gets stored 10 to 11 months of the year because driving it for regular things is totally unaffordable. It's just as gas inefficient and gigantic as the child killers.
I think the point is that even if you need to haul stuff frequently, a van will do the job way better than a truck
Just fix the laws in the US, and pickups and trucks for personal use will be as about nonexistent as in Europe.
im not a particularly big car hater but i dont get why you guys dont have mini trucks in the us, just the egregiously huge f150s and stuff.
you guys even call them mini trucks, we just call them trucks. they cover most of what regular working people would use them for, are easier to drive and maintain and can even be more economical because they end up being lighter than cars. im not even talking about kei trucks just the regular, car sized, pickup trucks!
also a lot of the suvs, but especially crossovers ive been in are just as cramped as cars inside. whats the fucking point why the fuck do they even build them like this 🤪
Car manufacturers cheating fuel requirements. When I was younger I had a Ranger that is what I think you describe. It was an early 90s model. We had them at one point. Federal fuel efficiency standards gradually made it so that car makers had to make them more and more efficient, and ICE was just never going to get that efficient. Either by lobbying or whatever, the regulations made exceptions for larger trucks. Some people do need to pull trailers and haul big loads. So instead of trying to make an ICE achieve this standard they just made the trucks and SUVs bigger. Today’s ranger is nearly as big as the F150 and it’s bigger than an F150 from a few years ago. It’s just a bit narrower now.
What’s crazy to me is with them electrifying the F150 there’s a ton of demand for them to make a cheaper electric truck. An old ranger size truck on the MachE platform that could sell for $25-30k would be a wild success.
One of the biggest consumers of pickup trucks in the US are insecure men who want the biggest dumbest machine they can buy. My favorite thing to do when I see one is to make fun of how pristine the bed is, because they never actually use it. They're usually too jacked up to even use as an actual pickup truck anyway.
I don’t have a source on this but I think I’ve heard that a large demographic of SUV buyers are actually women; people who have all too much experience being vulnerable in city life, and want something that puts them in a protected position.
I have a civic and I'm looking to change for an old Ranger because I want to have a lightweight pickup I can use for everyday transport but also for turning into a camping/roadtrip vehicle. Like a Vanlife vehicle but without the stupidity of owning a gigantic, gas guzzling van that I will only use for getting to work most of the year. The plan is perfect in my mind except everyone is fighting over what are becoming very rare used small pickups because they just don't exist on the regular market anymore and no one intelligent, doing regular work, needs a big dumb child killer of a pickup that drinks $100 of gas a day to move a few tool boxes from point a to point b.
Anyway, it's frustrating that pickup trucks have become penis prosthetics for the insecure when the rest of us just need compact utility.
Truck owner here who had to move from an old Tacoma to 4wd. We would absolutely have a smaller truck if they were available.
Yeah, they have their place as working vehicles. Unfortunately too many are just pavement princess trucks. They might haul a few hundred pounds (not counting the driver) a few times a year.
It's the mindset of fear and envy that underpins consumerism that needs to change.
No, the huge american pickuptrucks does not have a place as working vehicles, the are too big and too fragile, get a WV Transport pickup or van, way more practical than a huge F-150 or similar
also consider a station wagon
Do they still make those?
It's been harder and harder to find them in North America over the last few years. I think in Canada its just the premium German manufacturers (Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche) and Volvo who still have them.
If I'm not mistaken, they still sell them in "big" numbers in the EU. The only car sold in the U.S that could be considered a "station wagon" is the Subaru Outback but the latest models have become way too bloated. Technically speaking, the "station wagon" (or "estate" if you're British) no longer exists since it has (mostly) merge with the equally abysmal "crossover."
Subaru markets the Outback as an SUV, and has done since at least 2004.
The new ones are utterly hideous, I agree with that.
In europe they sell like crazy, the volvo V90 is cery popular, but even the WV Golf has a station wagon configuration
I see them a lot in Colorado
Someone looking to buy a car or any variety is not going to be swayed by online forum posts, unfortunately
*bakfiets. Don't forget the s.
It's a bike (fiets) with a bin/container (bak) in front of it.
Anyway, I think you're preaching to the choir here.
You're very much right. Like I said in the post, this was intended as something of a personal log entry rather than a thought-provoking discussion. I get very tempted to buy these pieces of shit when I know that I don't need them. I vaguely mentioned the "outdoors lifestyle" since that's one of the biggest appeals to consumers. What they fail to realize is that a mountain bike or even a simple hike offer a better off-roading experience. Also, thank you for the spell check.
I think you should live your dream and buy that Bronco. It'll take you places no pushbike will, and with more gear and food.
Or drive it to the trailhead, and continue on foot.
True, although these posts do reach /all from time to time.
Won't tow my car 🤷♂️
When you exaggerate this shit nobody but the echo chamber takes your seriously BTW. My insurance is the same as my outback. Repair and maintenance isn't more expensive, unless you want to get real nitpicky over the amount of oil twice a year.
I'm not understanding. Are you typically driving around town towing another car? Or do you just want to say you have the ability to tow it yourself when needed?
Even the echo chamber is pushing back on this one.
Trucks don’t innately get worse mileage and not all trucks are big. Also, a new vehicle, including big trucks, will be better on the environment than a 20yr old wagon. Age is more relevant than model. You seem to be off track here.
A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!
1. Be Civil
You may not agree on ideas, but please do not be needlessly rude or insulting to other people in this community.
2. No hate speech
Don't discriminate or disparage people on the basis of sex, gender, race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, or sexuality.
3. Don't harass people
Don't follow people you disagree with into multiple threads or into PMs to insult, disparage, or otherwise attack them. And certainly don't doxx any non-public figures.
4. Stay on topic
This community is about cars, their externalities in society, car-dependency, and solutions to these.
5. No reposts
Do not repost content that has already been posted in this community.
Moderator discretion will be used to judge reports with regard to the above rules.
In the absence of a flair system on lemmy yet, let’s try to make it easier to scan through posts by type in here by using tags: