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submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by flork@lemy.lol to c/linux@lemmy.ml

I have tried Linux as a DD on and off for years but about a year ago I decided to commit to it no matter the cost. First with Mint, then Ubuntu and a few others sprinkled in briefly. Both are "mainstream" "beginner friendly" distros, right? I don't want anything too advanced, right?

Well, ubuntu recently updated and it broke my second monitor (Ubuntu detected it but the monitor had "no signal"). After trying to fix it for a week, I decided to wipe it and reinstall. No luck. I tried a few other distros that had the same issue and I started to wonder if it was a hardware issue but I tried a Windows PC and the monitor worked no problem.

Finally, just to see what would happen I tried a distro very very different than what I'm used to: Fedora (Kinoite). And not only did everything "just work" flawlessly, but it's so much faster and more polished than I ever knew Linux to be!

Credit where it's due, a lot of the polish is due to KDE plasma. I'd never strayed from Gnome because I'm not an expert and people recommend GNOME to Linux newbies because it's "simple" and "customizable" but WOW is KDE SO MUCH SIMPLER AND STILL CUSTOMIZEABLE. Gnome is only "simple" in that it doesn't allow you to do much via the GUI. With Fedora Kinode I think I needed to use the terminal maybe once during setup? With other distros I was constantly needed to use the terminal (yes its helped me learn Linux but that curve is STEEP).

The atomic updates are fantastic too. I have not crashed once in the two weeks of setup whereas before I would have a crash maybe 1-2 times per week.

I am FULLY prepared for the responses demanding to know what I did to make it crash and telling me how I was using it wrong blah blah blah but let me tell you, if you are experienced with Windows but want to learn Linux and getting frustrated by all the "beginner" distros that get recommended, do yourself a favor and try Fedora Kinoite!

edit: i am DYING at the number of "you're using it wrong" comments here. never change people.

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[-] aleph@lemm.ee 63 points 2 months ago
  • requires a fair bit of post-installation configuration (suboptimal OOTB experience for newbies)
  • Uses btrfs by default but comes with no snapshots or GUI manager pre-configured for system restore
  • Less software availability compared to Ubuntu or Mint
  • More likely to break than Ubuntu or Mint
[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 38 points 2 months ago

requires a fair bit of post-installation configuration (suboptimal OOTB experience for newbies)

I'm not the biggest fan of Gnome's defaults but the regular, non-techie users want a browser (maybe Chrome instead of Firefox, depending on preference) and possibly Steam for gaming. Both are on Flathub, available from Gnome Software.

Less software availability compared to Ubuntu or Mint

The software that isn't available, isn't of interest to newbie/non-techie users.

More likely to break than Ubuntu or Mint

If anything causes breakage, it's those web tutorials telling inexperienced users to add a bunch of PPAs to do shit. "So you use Ubuntu but video playback is a big laggy on your super new, hardly upstream-supported Radeon graphics card? Easy, add this PPA with untested git snapshots of Mesa and Kernel." Yeah, no.

[-] flork@lemy.lol 32 points 2 months ago

requires a fair bit of post-installation configuration

This is crazy to me because of all the distros I've tested over the years Fedora Kinote is by FAR the one I've had to do the least amount of tweaking with. It's almost boring how "just works" it is. It's honestly changed my perspective of what a distro can be.

[-] jonno@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 2 months ago

Wait until you try out bazzite for gaming or just the regular kinoite ublue images. Both are basically kinoite with more tweaks and added software on top.

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[-] lemmyvore@feddit.nl 52 points 2 months ago

A crash 1-2 times a week sounds very strange no matter what Linux distro you're using. I would suggest testing your RAM right away, it could be a hardware problem.

[-] AndrewZabar@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago

Yeah that’s not a distro’s fault that’s something wrong. I run several machines with a variety of distros and nothing crashes ever, unless I’m testing partially working software.

[-] flork@lemy.lol 11 points 2 months ago

It's not a RAM problem lmao it rarely crashed on Windows and it's not crashed with Fedora either.

[-] lemmyvore@feddit.nl 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

If you did a full memtest and it came out good then OK.

I'm just saying don't discount hardware issues. Bad RAM blocks are notoriously hard to diagnose by use alone because there's not just one symptom you can point at, and they can manifest themselves wildly differently on different apps and different OS depending how large the blocks are and how they are spread.

Luckily there's a very simple and straightforward test you can make to put it out of your mind.

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[-] ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml 46 points 2 months ago

People generally recommend Debian-based distributions because they tend to be more popular, have more applications designed first and foremost to work on them, and tend to have the most community support because they are more popular.

[-] Grimpen@lemmy.ca 12 points 2 months ago

This has been my experience. I used Fedora for a while years ago, but rpm was already second fiddle to deb. Plus, I was already selling into my "old man distro" so I kept ending up with some Ubuntu version.

I did recently Manjaro and Linux Mint, but ended up with Ubuntu again, although this time Kubuntu, Ubuntu with KDE!

No shade from me though for going with Red Hat.

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[-] mr_MADAFAKA@lemmy.ml 29 points 2 months ago

Because on Fedora sometimes you are required to use terminal for some stuff like installing nvidia drivers and you dont really want to send a total beginner to Fedora

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[-] poki@discuss.online 26 points 2 months ago

Why does nobody here ever recommend Fedora to noobs?

It does happen. It's simply not the popular choice for the following reasons:

  • Fedora and its predecessors were until relatively recently simply more cumbersome in use compared to Debian and Ubuntu;
    • There was a time (like at least over 10 years ago) in which package managers didn't necessarily know how to resolve dependencies. However, Debian's package manager at the time did it earlier than the package manager found on Fedora's predecessor. Hence, this was a clear reason to prefer Debian or Ubuntu over Fedora('s predecessor).
    • Freezing packages and offering stable releases with two years of support (like Debian does), has been and continues to be a very pleasant way to run your Linux OS. That's why, even in the past, Fedora's slower cousin (i.e. CentOS) was very popular (though being RHEL clone didn't hurt either). Fedora, on the other hand, offers a semi-rolling release cycle of 6 months with only 13 months of support since release. With semi-rolling release, I refer to the fact that some packages are frozen and some are not frozen. Hence, you should expect daily updates. Access to the latest and greatest software is great. However, every update is a possible cause/reason for something to bork/break on your system. It's therefore unsurprising that some prefer the predictability found on other distros. Though, for the sake of completeness, one has to mention that Fedora Atomic does a great job at tackling this problem; especially the uBlue projects.
    • A couple of years back, Fedora switched in quick succession to systemd, Wayland and GTK4. Thankfully, I didn't experience this for myself. But, from what I could gather, it was a mess. Users, perhaps rightfully so, questioned Fedora's decision-making. While Fedora wasn't particular loved, this didn't help to retain new users, nor did it help to cultivate a trusted environment.
  • Due to the previous reason, Fedora has not particularly been a very popular distro. Hence, troubleshooting your issues through Google is less straightforward compared to Linux Mint or Ubuntu. Additionally, as Fedora's user base has primarily been more experienced users compared to the ones found on Linux Mint or Ubuntu, it's unsurprising to find less discussion on elementary stuff. Simply by virtue of Fedora's user base already being past that.
  • Fedora, like Debian and openSUSE, offers a relatively bare bones experiences. It does make a lot of sane decisions for you. However, it doesn't focus on being particularly GUI-friendly or newbie-friendly. By contrast, distros like Bazzite, Linux Mint, ~~Manjaro,~~ MX Linux, Nobara, Pop!_OS and Zorin OS (amongst others), do put thought and effort into streamlining the experience as much as they can; especially for newer users.
  • While Fedora is ~~primarily~~ community-driven, Red Hat's influence is undeniable. As such, people that hate corporate interest and/or Red Hat and/or IBM will favor the use of Arch and Debian.

Having said all of that, I've been using Fedora Atomic for over two years now. Heck, Silverblue was my first distro. And it has been excellent so far. Furthermore, with Bazzite (based on Fedora Atomic) and Nobara (based on Fedora) often mentioned in conversations regarding beginner friendly distros, even if Fedora itself isn't explicitly mentioned, the ecosystem is clearly healthy and will continue to flourish.

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[-] erwan@lemmy.ml 26 points 2 months ago

Unfortunately boring distributions don't get recommended because users of boring distributions don't bother commenting on distribution discussions.

And it's really unfortunate that obscure distributions have more vocal fans, because boring distributions are much better for beginners.

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[-] minibyte@sh.itjust.works 26 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I’m salty on Red Hat and won’t touch anything near it.

I recommend Zorin because it’s Debian based and I’ve been running Debian Stable for over 20 years. If there’s an issue I can probably help.

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[-] domi@lemmy.secnd.me 23 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Long-time Fedora user here. I do not think Fedora is noob friendly at all.

  • Their installer is awful
  • Their spins are really well hidden for people who don't know they exist
  • The Nvidia drivers can't be installed via the GUI
  • There's no "third party drivers" tool at all
  • The regular Flathub repo is not the default and their own repo is absolutely useless
  • AMD/Intel GPUs lack hardware acceleration for H264 and H265 out of the box, adding them requires the console
  • Their packages are consistently named differently than their Ubuntu/Debian counterpart

I really like Fedora for their newish packages without breaking constantly. I still would not recommend it for beginners.

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[-] bloodfart@lemmy.ml 22 points 2 months ago

When the time came to pick which boring old man distro to use, the people who picked and would recommend fedora all got jobs supporting rhel. They don’t have time or energy to devote to computer touching when they get home from their serious business jobs making sure the computer keeps increasing shareholder value.

Fedora is very good.

[-] thingsiplay@beehaw.org 15 points 2 months ago

I wouldn't be confident in recommending Fedora to noobs, because its a distribution that is on the bleeding edge side. But it depends on what type of noob we are talking about. There are noobs in Linux, who are technically well versed in Windows and have no problem in adapting to a new system. If someone wants to have the newest software, then Fedora might be it.

Also not many people have experience with Fedora, therefore less likely to be recommended. Most people use or used Ubuntu, maybe even started with Ubuntu. You or me may not like it, but its proven that Ubuntu is generally a good choice for newcomers to get into Linux. And that also plays into how many people know and are able to help. In contrast, Fedora is too much of a niche.

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[-] Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me 14 points 2 months ago

The problem with Fedora and especially the atomic versions is that when you Google "how to do X on Linux" you pretty much always get information for Ubuntu and Debian derivatives. The atomic versions have it mildly harder because now you also have to learn how immutable distros work, and you can't just make install something from GitHub (not that it's recommended to do so, but if you just want your WiFi to work and that's all you could find, it's your best option).

It's not as bad as it used to be thanks to Flatpak and stuff, but if you're really a complete noob the best experience will be the one you can Google and get a working answer as easily as possible.

Once you're familiar and ready to upgrade then it makes sense to go to other distros like Fedora, Nobara, Bazzite, Kionite and whatnot.

I don't like Ubuntu, I feel like Mint is to Ubuntu what Manjaro is to Arch, Pop_OS is okay when it doesn't uninstall your DE when installing Steam. But I still recommend those 3 to noobs because everyone knows how to get things working on those, and the guides are mostly interchangeable as well. Purely because it's easy to search for help with those. I just tell them when you're tired of the bugs and comfortable enough with Linux then go start distrohopping a bit to find your more permanent home.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago

if you’re really a complete noob the best experience will be the one you can Google and get a working answer as easily as possible.

Those Ubuntu "as easily as possible" answers on the web often revolve around adding random PPAs which cause breakage over time, especially the more PPAs are mixed and mashed. If anything, those easy answers from random Ubuntu forums and websites, last updated 2014, cause more harm than good.

[-] Luna@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 months ago

I do, Fedora is simply the best and meets the most use cases. It combines good privacy and security out of the box with a clean UI (at least with Workstation and KDE spin) while having a package manager that's easy to learn and easy access to Flathub and up-to-date apps (can't stress this enough, even windows and Mac keep apps up to date and don't hold them back for the sake of LTS (sorry Workstation Debian fans). It also brings in newer and better technologies without breaking almost anything (at least for me).

This is just my opinion though, I know people like to reccomend Mint but I personally do not like it, and despise it's desktop options (I am one of the people that do not and never have liked Cinnamon).

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[-] RedNight@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 months ago

I've been having a tough time with it. Maybe I'm unlucky with my hardware and setup. Spend hours this week recovering from a black screen after upgrading to F40. Issue with Plymouth + Nvidia + Luks at boot. Also getting Nvidia to work on F39, my first install. Secondary computer (laptop) macbook 2017, keyboard doesn't work with Fedora compared to Linux Mint.

I'd recommend Linux Mint for beginners after my experiences. imho

[-] poki@discuss.online 8 points 2 months ago

Nvidia can be a bitch. And it's unfortunate that Fedora isn't particularly well known for handling that graciously.

I’d recommend Linux Mint for beginners after my experiences.

Absolutely fair. FWIW, if you ever feel like giving Fedora another chance, consider doing it through its derivative (i.e. Bazzite).

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[-] cevn@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago

Just finished moving all 3 of my computers to Fedora and WOW it is so good compared to ubuntu. I was missing out. Everything is working on both AMD and Nvidia, even wayland.

[-] psmgx@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

Newer, less stable packages. I've been on Fedora as a daily driver since 2009 and have had yum updates break things. I do RHEL full-time so I've got the know-how to unravel it, but it's not for the noob / non-technical, at least not at first.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

I’ve been on Fedora as a daily driver since 2009 and have had yum updates break things.

Ah yes, when yum was the package manager, you had some breakage. As context for the readers here: dnf replaced yum in 2015, almost a decade ago: https://lwn.net/Articles/640420/

I do RHEL full-time so I’ve got the know-how to unravel it, but it’s not for the noob / non-technical, at least not at first.

Also, "noob / non-technical" users just use Gnome Software and not command line package managers.

[-] potajito@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 2 months ago

I wouldn't recommend fedora plain, but the ublue atomic spins are great. Really solid lots of choices (use case, DE, hardware...) personally I use bazzite on the desktop and aurora on the laptop.

[-] zaphodb2002@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 months ago

Yes, this is my go to nowadays for all my family and friends. Atomic makes it harder for them to break it and everything just works out of the box.

[-] bizdelnick@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 months ago

And not only did everything “just work” flawlessly, but it’s so much faster and more polished than I ever knew Linux to be!

Congrats, you are very lucky. But try to survive couple of version upgrades before recommending it to noobs.

[-] gnuplusmatt@reddthat.com 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I've been running Fedora OStree variants for over two years. I version upgraded and rebased between entirely different spins, rawhide and over to ublue variants then back to fedora mainline. All off the original install, keeping my userspace intact. Never once has it self destructed.

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[-] MXX53@programming.dev 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I love Fedora. But, part of my day job is also managing linux servers. I tend to recommend things that I think are the easiest to get running. Although Fedora is super easy to get running (at least to me), I find the installation process of mint or pop os to be much easier overall. Between those two OSes, I have moved several people from windows to fulltime linux and I'm not entirely sure that the conversion would have been as successful with fedora and without more help from me during the install process.

[-] nyan@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 months ago

Because distros from the Debian family are more popular, any random help article aimed at beginners is likely to assume one of those distros. (If you know how to map from apt to rpm, you're probably not a beginner.) Plus, I don't trust Red Hat, who have a strong influence on Fedora.

(Note that I don't generally recommend my own distro—Gentoo—to newcomers either, unless they have specific needs best served by it.)

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[-] LeFantome@programming.dev 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I think Fedora is solid choice. I will tell you why I do not recommend it to new users myself.

1 - Fedora is very focused on being non-commercial ( see my other comments on its history ). This leads them to avoid useful software like codecs that I think new users will expect out of the box

2a- the support cycle is fairly short and whole release upgrades are required

2b - Fedora is typically an early adopter of new tech. It is not “bleeding edge” but it may be moreso than new users need.

3 - it is does not really target new users like say Mint does though it does target GUI use

4 - I do not use it myself anymore and I do not like to recommend what I do not use. What I do use has a reputation for not being new user appropriate ( not sure I agree ).

Nothing wrong with Fedora though in my view. I would never discourage anybody from trying it.

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[-] sic_semper_tyrannis@lemmy.today 10 points 2 months ago

I've recently converted two people from Windows to Linux with Fedora Kinoite. One of them has been using it for maybe two months now without a single issue and the other just started using it with positive first impressions. I find it very modern, simple, and familiar. The atomic system just works too. I enjoy it much more than Mint

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[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

I do. Nobara specifically since it has the non-free repos and codecs by default, and a bunch of tweaks for gaming and editing already set up or easily added in the Welcome app.

[-] GravitySpoiled@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Usually people recommend what they use and like. A majority of people is on ubuntu/mint. Hence, they recommend that. I don't like apt and I'd never send someone in the debian world unless they want a server. But nowadays the package manager doesn't matter too much anyway. You should use flatpaks first, and then distrobox, nix, or native (rpm). You won't feel a real difference between major distros because you don't interact with the underlying system too much.

Fedora is perfect for beginners. And especially atomic versions as you said are great for beginners. Atomic versions are not good for tinkerers, so if you send someone who wants to customize his experience heavily, he's going to have a hard time on atomic versions as a beginner. A casual pc user who will edit docs and browse internet prpfits immensely from fedora and atomic version. Fedora has awesome defaults and a new user does not need to care about recent advances in linux because fedora implements them already. Especially ublue improves upon fedora's ecosystem.

[-] TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org 9 points 2 months ago

Fedora still feels like Redhat sort of to me (I'm old) and I wouldn't have recommended Redhat in 2001 either, I would have told someone to use Mandrake or Suse. Redhat was the "corporate/govt" OS and I know it's changed, but that's why it's usually not the first recommendation that comes to my mind. I still need to adapt.

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[-] digdilem@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I would not encourage anyone to join the EL universe as I don't consider it as stable as others.

TLDR; Redhat's being absorbed into IBM and they don't care about RHEL. RHEL (in my view) is dying a slow death. Without RHEL, there is no Fedora or Centos Stream. There'd also be no Rocky or Alma, as things currently stand.

(Although if that happened, I'd not be surprised if the users of Fedora merged with Rocky and Alma in some form of new and fully independent distro - we've already seen how well such disasters can be worked around)

Longer reasoning: Redhat, in my view, have made some unpredictable and frankly terrible decisions over the past few years with RHEL which have caused a great deal of concern in the business sector about its stability as a product. (Prematurely ending Centos 8 six years early, paywalling the source code, and more recent anti-rebuilder steps. They also treated the community team working for Centos appallingly throughout these leading to many resignations.) Further more, these were communicated without warning or consultation and have sometimes come across as petty and spiteful, rather than as professional business decisions.

IBM bought Redhat shortly before this happened, mostly for its cloud services. It seems from the outside that RHEL is being squeezed. There have been two major rounds of layoffs. In all, this paints a picture of a company that is in decline and we've seen a reduction in contributions to the excellent work done by Redhat in the foss world. IBM have a long history of buying and absorbing companies - I don't see why Redhat would be any different and RHEL doesn't make enough money.

Our company is moving away from EL and I know of several others who are doing so. We're all choosing Debian.

[-] LeFantome@programming.dev 8 points 2 months ago

For anybody that does not know, Fedora was founded by Red Hat to be their “community” dostro. Before Fedora, there was only Red Hat Linux and it was trying to be both commercial and community. Red Hat founded Fedora to be an explicitly community distribution and then released the first version of Red Hat Enterprise Linux ( RHEL ). This resolved their commercial / community conflict.

Fedora is explicitly NOT an enterprise distribution. They are annoyingly committed to only free software. They release often and have short release cycles. Fedora is certainly not aimed at enterprises.

Rocky and Alma are RHEL alternatives and are absolutely aimed at the enterprise. Fedora merging with either of these projects would be super surprising indeed. It would make no sense whatsoever.

The “community” enterprise option from Red Hat is not Fedora, it is CentOS Stream. Alma has rebased onto CemtOS Stream ( which is what RHEL is also derived from ). That makes sense.

I have fewer comments on the health or future of RHEL or Red Hat itself or how much IBM. Ares about it. I guess I will say that I have never seen so many ads for it. I think revenues are at record levels. It does not feel like it is dying.

I don’t use Fedora or RHEL but Red Hat is one of the biggest contributors to Open Source. So, I hope this cynical poster is wrong. GCC, Glibc, Systemd, Xorg, Wayland, Mesa,SELinux, Podman, and the kernel would all be massively impacted by less Red Hat funding.

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[-] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 2 months ago
[-] palordrolap@kbin.run 19 points 2 months ago

You joke, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's at the back of some people's minds.

There's also the whole association with Red Hat, and since Red Hat got bought, went corporate and murdered CentOS, Fedora is tainted somehow.

These things aren't necessarily good reasons to not recommend Fedora, (for those see other comments) but they're reasons nonetheless.

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[-] Marighost@lemm.ee 8 points 2 months ago

I had a similar experience on my laptop. I tried Ubuntu which broke after trying to throw on Nvidia drivers (using the official docs). I tried Mint and Debian, both of which couldn't detect my laptop's wifi card (after hours of trying to fix - apparently a common issue but the fixes did not work for me!). I landed on Fedora, worked great. I'm now on EndeavourOS, but Fedora was the stepping stone I needed.

My desktop I built recently is Bazzite, which is Fedora based and I love it.

[-] geoma@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 months ago

I am installing fedora kinoite to most of the people I install gnulinux to. All noobs.

[-] ssm@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 2 months ago

Friends don't let friends use IBM software.

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this post was submitted on 25 Jun 2024
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Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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