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this post was submitted on 01 Oct 2023
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Zelensky had been talking a lot with Russia while Crimea was occupied, while they already occupied parts of Luhansk and Donetsk (by proxy). Even after the 2022 there were talks, you might remember the pictures of delegations sitting around a table in Belarus.
If you had read the article in question (or in fact OP's comment) you would've seen that it said:
Now, I will grant that yes of course that was a political move. He was known to be a Russia-friendly president, elected (among other things) because people thought Poroshenko was too heavy-handed. Such a declaration simply makes clear to the Ukrainian people that he's drawing a line in the sand, that his patience with Russia has ended.
And can you fucking blame him Russia just annexed four regions. How much talking do you think, say, Vietnam would do if China annexed four of their provinces or whatever they're called.
Throughout the conflict this has been his demand to return Crimea for peace talks. This was never a realistic option.
Yes I know his current stance, but he has always called for the return of Crimea.
I understand how terrible this situation is for Ukraine as a whole, and I want it to end. The demands Zelensky has made from the beginning has only made certain that the war would continue. What we need is a ceasefire and neither side is making reasonable demands.
So... when I break into your home and eat your cookies, what are you going to do? Tell yourself that you should accept a ceasefire and let me have the couch?
I'm sick and tired of this vulgar pacifism that does nothing but embolden aggressors. No: You should punch me in the face and boot me the fuck out. If you don't I'll leave to do the exact same thing to your neighbour once the cookies are gone, and the flour and sugar is gone -- because yes I'm first going to make you to make more, doormat.
Ask NATO, they're the aggressors that provoked this conflict. They expanded around Russia and heightened tensions by putting nuclear missiles in Turkey to provoke the Cuban missile crisis, so you know Russians don't want nuclear missiles in Ukraine. Same as we wouldn't want Russian missiles in Mexico.
That's the worst take yet.
Claiming NATO actions at the height of the cold war were aggression towards the modern Russian state is ridiculous.
Except that was before disarmament? Which the US and USSR (and now Russia and many others) signed on to. Trying to say that 50yo actions taken at the height of the cold war justify Russia's modern actions is outright horseshit.
Not what I said. I'm saying Russians remember feeling threatened by the combined force of NATO and Ukraine trying to join provoked the invasion.
🤣🤣
When you have no knowledge of history
Why did all those states want to join NATO? Might it have something to do with the continued occupation of Moldova, the invasion of Georgia, and their experience they had while being Russian vassals, being subjects to deportations and worse? Ever talked to an Estonian?
Wanna talk about nukes in Kaliningrad and Belarus? Wanna talk about the Budapest memorandum? Wanna talk about China's nuclear guarantees to Ukraine and wonder why Russia is only making nuclear threats against NATO, but not Ukraine?
By the end of the war, the Yugoslavs had killed 1,500[37] to 2,131 combatants.[38] 10,317 civilians were killed or missing, with 85% of those being Kosovar Albanian and some 848,000 were expelled from Kosovo.[39] The NATO bombing killed about 1,000 members of the Yugoslav security forces in addition to between 489 and 528 civilians. It destroyed or damaged bridges, industrial plants, hospitals, schools, cultural monuments, private businesses as well as barracks and military installations.
The difference between NATO expansion and Russia's expansion:
NATO expands by having democracies decide to join. Note for this to happen, the countries in question must want to join. If you insist, you can blame NATO for accepting these applications.
Russia expands by rolling in with tanks, killing people and committing war crimes. Exactly the reason why all those countries want to join NATO, to have some protection from that bully.
But sure, the defensive alliance is the actual aggressor, not the country starting invasions. /s
Russia voted to join and was rejected dummy.
Yes, "all practical civilian and military cooperation between NATO and Russia" was suspended by NATO on 1 April 2014, in response to Russia annexing Crimea, which also broke the Budapest Memorandum.
No country has the right to join an alliance with other countries. You can ask, they can reject.
Try to include arguments instead of personal attacks, if you can.
This was over 20 years ago when Putin became president of Russia. Also the Soviets applied in 1954 as well.
Ok, so what does this mean? Is the idea NATO should accept all countries who apply? Should not reject applications?
I believe it means that NATO's goal is to balkanize Russia, not to protect Europe from them but to exploit their natural resources. Currently all the oil in Russia belongs to a state owned company so the west does not like that.
I love me some mental gymnastics just as much as everyone else, but for a minute lets agree for some reason Putin has a reason to be worried about "NATO expansionism"... didnt he e already have the upper hand circa 2014 and Crimea? Was he feeling just as threatened? Somehow even after mobilizing, Europe was still energy dependant, the US was about as friendly with Russia in a long time during the trump presidency, I've had the impression that much remained neutral before the full scale invasion aside from trade quarrels, nobody was talking about arming Ukraine in some sort of cold war era missile crisis. Which I would certainly hope the change from 3 day "special operation " into this fucking shitshow should tell you all you need: it is about the land. And if you're wanting the former Soviet Union coming back to its glory through force, just say it.
You're very ignorant of the situation.
Thanks