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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

@o_o@programming.dev asked "why are folks so anti-capitalist?" not long ago. It got quite a few comments. But I noticed a trend: a lot of people there didn't agree on the definition of "capitalism".

And the lack of common definition was hobbling the entire discussion. So I wanted to ask a precursor question. One that needs to be asked before anybody can even start talking about whether capitalism is helpful or good or necessary.

Main Question

  • What is capitalism?
  • Since your answer above likely included the word "capital", what is capital?
  • And either,
    • A) How does capitalism empower people to own what they produce? or, (if you believe the opposite,)
    • B) How does capitalism strip people of their control over what they produce?

Bonus Questions (mix and match or take them all or ignore them altogether)

  1. Say you are an individual who sells something you create. Are you a capitalist?
  2. If you are the above person, can you exist in both capitalist society and one in which private property has been abolished?
  3. Say you create and sell some product regularly (as above), but have more orders than you can fulfill alone. Is there any way to expand your operation and meet demand without using capitalist methods (such as hiring wage workers or selling your recipes / process to local franchisees for a cut of their proceeds, etc)?
  4. Is the distinction between a worker cooperative and a more traditional business important? Why is the distinction important?
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[-] JoeClu@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Sounds like Poly Sci homework. How about you answer the questions and post them here.

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sure. To me, ~~capitalism is any system that supports ownership of any property -- oil rigs, land, factories, assembly lines, burger machines, copyrights and patents, mines, farms, etc -- that is used to collect the products of another person's labor. (For example, when the oil rig worker is payed a wage, but the oil rig owner owns the oil that was pumped, that's capitalism.)~~

EDIT: Wolfhound pointed out that my definition ought to specify who is allowed to to control this property. And that's true.

Capitalism is any system that permits all people (or non-person entities) with sufficient wealth to own property -- oil rigs, land, factories, assembly lines, burger machines, copyrights and patents, mines, farms, etc -- that is used to collect the products of another person's labor. (For example, when the oil rig worker is payed a wage, but the oil rig owner or oil rig corporation owns the oil that was pumped, that's capitalism.)

The property used in the above manner is called capital, or private property. The person using it is called a capitalist.

As for whether it is conducive to workers controlling what they produce, my answer is that -- by definition -- capitalism allows someone else to control what workers produce. It does not guarantee a worker any power over what they produce, and in the majority of cases (where a worker must pay rent, health insurance, food, etc and cannot afford to start their own business or buy their own equipment) it actually pressures workers into situations where they do not control what they produce.

[-] ImaginaryFox@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Too short Owen. Assignment is 1250 words minimum with proper MLA citation. Resubmit before the deadline.

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

🤣 🤣

Look, I promise: I was just annoyed at people talking past each other on the question @o_o@programming.dev asked. And I just wanted to ask the question in a way that might address the problems that o_o's question ran into.

[-] WolfhoundRO@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I really feel like this definition is fairly incomplete. All the traits you mentioned can also describe feudalism, but replacing "capitalist" with "noble", which is sanctioned and invested by other nobles or the suzerain. You could say that capitalism is "any system that supports private ownership of private property that is used to collect the products of another person's labor". With the mention that the private ownership can be asserted by either a person or an organized group of persons, but both private entities

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 1 points 1 year ago

Ah... good point. My description did nothing to distinguish capitalism from feudalism. There is necessity for some mention of who is allowed ownership of this form of property. (Or what is allowed ownership as is often the case.)

As for the word private though: I wanted to avoid more terms I would need to define that might obscure my definition. Also I'm not even sure what distinguishes private ownership from other kinds of ownership. Or what makes a private entity.

But thanks for the input. At some point I'll edit my definition.

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[-] Nemo@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 year ago

Capitalism is an economic system where capital is considered a valid input to the production process, worthy of renumeration. Contrast with some other systems where labor is the only valid input.

Capital is material wealth used productively.

Capitalism empowers ownership of produced good by laborers by funding new ventures where laborers can be more self-directed than if they were forced to labor under the direction of others. Capitalism erodes control from laborers by introducing a non-labor stake in the venture. Both are true.


An artisan who sells what they produce is free to be a capitalist or not, the two are unrelated.

Such a person cannot exist in a society without private property, as "selling" is not a valid concept in such a society. Artisans in general would still exist, though, and probably more abundantly.

An artisan who has more work orders than she can fill alone can expand without the methods you describe. She can form a partnership with another artisan, and teach or otherwise share her methods of production, tools, and branding. This could be an equal partnership or something more like taking an apprentice.

The distinction between worker coöps and other businesses is important, but it's also important to recognize that coöps are a subset of businesses, not an opposing type of entity. Coöps have just as much ability to behave in a predatory manner towards consumers, and almost as much potential to seek self-perpetuation and growth at the expense of their environment. That they will be less predatory towards laborers is nice, but it's not enough to make them "safe".

[-] OwenEverbinde@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago

I'm with J Lou. Even Marx considered capital a valid input to the production process. He just thought it was being misused.

He believed the workers should control capital democratically. He believed our current treatment of capital (what capital entitles a person to do under our current system) was destroying people's lives and hope and autonomy.

But Marx and Engels actually dedicated several paragraphs of the Communist Manifesto to explaining why capital should not be destroyed during the overthrow of the bourgeoisie -- indicating that they did believe capital to be valuable.

[-] jlou@mastodon.social 2 points 1 year ago

What do you mean by valid input?

Both capital and labor are causally efficacious in production. Why would people use them otherwise? Capital is also the fruits of past labor, so denying capital remuneration denies remuneration to the workers that created that capital @asklemmy

[-] KevinDeRodeTovenaar@feddit.nl 1 points 1 year ago

Capitalism is an economic system wherein production is organised in order to produce a massive commodities, which are sold for a profit, which is then reinvested in the production process with the goal of endless growth of the production.

[-] Banana@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

The key here being maximization of profit. It's the very foundation.

[-] TootSweet@latte.isnot.coffee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

So, first off, let me say that if it'll help us move toward something better than we have now, even if in my head I call it anarcho-communism, I'll happily call it "capitalism."

For reference, there's an author named Charles Eisenstein who in his book "Sacred Economics" advocates for taking steps that he intends to move us (the world, I guess) eventually to a gift-based economy without money or barter. And he calls it capitalism. With a straight face. Now, I don't know if deep down in his heart he believes it actually qualifies as capitalism or if he's calling it capitalism because he feels like his aims are more likely to be well received by pro-capitalists if he calls it "capitalism."

One can IMO go too far with that. Case in point: ecofascism. But I digress.

On to the definition of capitalism. At least in my head, capitalism is characterized by:

  • The profit motive. The incentive to amass. (Typically money, but a barter-based system could well be the same in every way that matters.)
  • Quid pro quo. The whole system is based on it.
  • Private property. A particular set of rules for who has ownership rights over what.
  • The institution of employment.

My answer didn't include the word "capital", so I'll skip that second question.

As to your third question, let me take exception with the question itself. I don't believe "control over what you produce" is necesssarily a good thing per se. I believe in having something roughly like ownership rights over what one uses. But if one produce a surplus, I don't believe they should be able to deprive others in need of said surplus.

I think capitalism coerces people into producing surplus for others to sell for a profit that the producer (employee) doesn't get a fair share in if that goes more to the spirit of your question.

Bonus questions:

  1. I... don't know or care? "Capitalist" can mean someone who supports the institution of capitalism. Or it can mean something like an owner of a company that employs people. I think plenty of people participate in capitalism (by selling things they make, by accepting an employment position, etc) out of necessity while disapproving of the system as a whole. Hell, I'm one of them. I'm not sure I understand why you ask.
  2. If I'm the person who sells things I make? Again, anticapitalists participate in capitalism because capitalism doesn't give them a choice. Does that answer your question?
  3. The word "sell" here has some baggage I don't like. I'm not for a system in which anybody "sells" anything. But to answer how one might expand an operation that produces things, worker cooperatives are probably the most obvious answer.
  4. Anyway, worker cooperatives are owned and run by the workers. Corporations are owned by shareholders and run by boards of directors. Worker cooperatives don't have incentives and power to fuck their workers over. They do have incentive and power to take care of their workers.

Maybe I should have read the first thread you referenced before answering these. Maybe it would have given more context. But hopefully this response gives you what you were looking for.

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[-] arthur@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What is capitalism?

Capitalism is the way we currently organize our society, where a group of people (the ruling class) have ownership over the means of production and, using that, they take the labor value created by the working class. They use their power to control the society, despite democracy, and change its rules to their advantage.

How capitalism strips people of their control over what they produce?

Think about... A factory worker making smartphones. How many they do in a day? How much it does each will cost? How much of it the worker gets? The shareholders that owns the factory will get most of the value as profit, despite the fact that they did not work.

1: No. You made something of value. Capitalists don't create value.

2: Private property is not the same as Ownership of the means of production. Communism don't abolish private property, it abolish ownership of the means of production.

3: You can expand your production by working with other people, as expected. In a communist society you would not be their "boss", and would not get any value from their work for yourself, they will have it.

4: Communism is a way to organize society without exploitation. They may be true for a cooperative, and we need more of that. But the implications of that for the whole society are deeper; democracy may reflect the needs of people better when there are no power disparity between member of the society.

[-] jeena@jemmy.jeena.net 0 points 1 year ago

To be fair, the question was "What is Capitalism" you're mostly answering the question "What is Communism".

[-] arthur@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago

Just on the bonus questions. Lol.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hot take, but it's mostly a buzzword at this point. It more productive to talk about wealth distribution and the structure of industry directly, and in which ways they can be good or bad.

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this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2023
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