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this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2023
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Asklemmy
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So, first off, let me say that if it'll help us move toward something better than we have now, even if in my head I call it anarcho-communism, I'll happily call it "capitalism."
For reference, there's an author named Charles Eisenstein who in his book "Sacred Economics" advocates for taking steps that he intends to move us (the world, I guess) eventually to a gift-based economy without money or barter. And he calls it capitalism. With a straight face. Now, I don't know if deep down in his heart he believes it actually qualifies as capitalism or if he's calling it capitalism because he feels like his aims are more likely to be well received by pro-capitalists if he calls it "capitalism."
One can IMO go too far with that. Case in point: ecofascism. But I digress.
On to the definition of capitalism. At least in my head, capitalism is characterized by:
My answer didn't include the word "capital", so I'll skip that second question.
As to your third question, let me take exception with the question itself. I don't believe "control over what you produce" is necesssarily a good thing per se. I believe in having something roughly like ownership rights over what one uses. But if one produce a surplus, I don't believe they should be able to deprive others in need of said surplus.
I think capitalism coerces people into producing surplus for others to sell for a profit that the producer (employee) doesn't get a fair share in if that goes more to the spirit of your question.
Bonus questions:
Maybe I should have read the first thread you referenced before answering these. Maybe it would have given more context. But hopefully this response gives you what you were looking for.
Okay, I absolutely love this response. All the way down.
And no, you didn't need to read o_o's thread. My personal summary of it is that people who defined capitalism as, "anything that allows individuals control over the fruits of their labor" and people who defined capitalism as, "the alienation of workers from the fruits of their labor" were talking right past each other, not really understanding that the points they were making only supported their argument if you assumed their definitions were correct.
That is amusing. And yeah. That sounds very pragmatic. Or ignorant. Hard to tell which. But Eisenstein sounds like an interesting character. And like you said, if one needs to call their ideal system "capitalism" to get it implemented, then there's no real crime.
Solid. I like these components.
That fascinates me. I have always heard the struggle phrased essentially as, "you control your proceeds" vs "someone else controls your proceeds." I didn't realize people were advocating philosophies that bowed to the idea that "needs" should take priority over personal possessions. I'll have to think about that one for a while.
This answer is wonderful. Again, I like that you acknowledge that the definitions are so varied that they aren't even useful anymore.
The main reason I asked? It was a leading question: my goal was that people's answers would highlight the differences between their definitions. Because, if people could understand why their definitions were fundamentally different, maybe they could understand why they were talking past each other?
I'm not sure if the effort will succeed. But I really liked and appreciated this answer.