Would you put your own money into nuclear power these days?
I absolutely would and have done so: https://www.vaneck.com/us/en/investments/uranium-nuclear-energy-etf-nlr/
I would. ROI takes longer, but they're super fucking profitable as soon as they turn a profit at all. They're generally base loaded 24/7 except for about 3-4 weeks per year for refueling outage. I'm 35, so assume 10 years to build and another 10 years before it starts profiting. I'm retired at 55. Sounds pretty good to me.
The alternative is to be making bank on a far smaller outlay much more quickly with renewables.
I would. ROI takes longer, but they’re super fucking profitable as soon as they turn a profit at all.
Citation needed.
My state has a pair of nuclear plants built in the 70s, 40+ years ago. Not only are they not profitable, they lose lots of money every year. In 2021, these two plants lost $93 million. source - warning PDF
The only way these two nuclear plants became profitable was when Republicans were bribed by the energy company (First Energy) to force increased rates and fees on the citizens through legislated bail out so the energy companies could make a profit while also gutting the green energy initiatives in the state. I'm not even exaggerating any of this. The former Republican speaker of the house is now in prison serving 20 years accepting something close to (from memory) $150 million in bribes. source
If you can tell me when nuclear power gets cheaper, I'd really like to see it. We certainly haven't here.
Well, in Germany the government basically paid for all the R&D. Then they massively subsidised the construction. Then the nukes were profitable for a while, especially after they got to run them way past their design life. And finally, the government got stuck with most of the bill for decommissioning. So all in all, nukes are a great way for privatising profits and socialising losses, which is what our current economic system is all about.
Citation needed.
Watch out, some dickhead might accuse you of sealioning.
Wouldn't be the first time. If someone makes a claim, they can back it up. I do.
I literally own a bit of stock in the most nuclear-power-related company in my country - so yes.
Sure would. I put money into renewable stocks and they tanked hard. Looking at you RNW.
We already run carriers and subs on nukes, supertankers and massive cargo ships could use them too. And arguably should, given they're a huge, massive source of pollution.
I wouldn't build a new power plant, but reactivating existing ones makes sense and is cheaper per GW than solar and reactivation has insignificant emissions.
Paper money, sure. But nickels and dimes? No thanks, I don’t want to walk around with radioactive currency
The number of people who still think nuclear is bad and solar / wind will make up for it is really depressing. We could have had an unrivaled nuclear power infrastructure but those NIMBY assholes stopped it 50 years ago and now we rely on extending existing plants past their lifetimes while running in fucking circles about how to save the planet. Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league! AaagggghHhHhhhhhhhh
Please provide valid sources to back up your comment. Thanks.
I'll be a source. I worked at Calvert Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant in MD for over 10 years. Because of the trend of shutting down nuclear, I shifted over to operating a combined cycle power plant. Calvert with 2 units did about 1800MW combined, base loaded 24/7 except for outages, and those were staggered so that when one went down for maintenance and refueling, the other unit was still throwing 900MW to the grid. My current plant has 2 gas engine turbines and 1 STG, and on a good day when we're fully up 2x1 with ducts in, we can hit about 800MW when it's called for. Balls to the wall in perfect conditions on a plant that's not even ten years old, we can't do half of what Calvert was doing and they've been operating since the 70s.
Imagine what modern nuclear tech could do. We should've been a step ahead of everybody with this.
Do you have any opinions on light water SMR designs? Do you think the idea to mass produce them and distribute these smaller reactors on a local basis is feasible, or do you think if they are mass produced we would be more likely to see them clustered in series in more modern plants?
Thanks for this. I did ask OP for sources, in other words links to verifiable data to back up the assertion that:
"Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league! AaagggghHhHhhhhhhhh"
The data is widely available and easy to find.
It's the difference between spending 0 seconds looking it up and wanting "a source", versus actually looking it up and not finding anything, then asking where the info comes from.
Asking for a source just to ask for a source is called sealioning.
Asking for a source just to ask for a source is called sealioning.
Good grief, no.
I read so much absolute bullshit around nuclear and renewables where people just write out their feelings on the subject. Asking for sources to back up their claims isn't sealioning, it's a polite way of asking someone to try and back up their claims with facts.
Here are the claims he made:
We could have had an unrivaled nuclear power infrastructure but those NIMBY assholes stopped it 50 years ago
now we rely on extending existing plants past their lifetimes
Running in fucking circles about how to save the planet.
Has anyone who wants to “go green” without nuclear ever looked at the power output of these things?? It’s not even the same league
So which part do you know to be false, that you couldn't easily look up and had to ask him where he got this obscure info? Which part do you want him to source? All of it? Even the part where we are running in circles fixing climate change? Or is it the part where current plants are being showered in money to make up for extended lifetimes?
Right, you were just sealioning.
So which part do you know to be false,
Re-read what I wrote, I was quite clear although I edited my post a minute after submitting so maybe you missed it.
You can claim I'm seasoning all you want, anyone with a functioning brain can see I'm not.
I don't need to reread what you wrote, im not the one making the claims!
What you actually said to buddy was:
Please provide valid sources to back up your comment. Thanks.
That message is the one you might want to edit instead of arguing with me it's not sealioning.
I don’t need to reread what you wrote
Cool. We're done here.
Please provide valid sources to back up your comment. Thanks.
I don't think nuclear power was killed by NIMBYs, at least not entirely. In the 1970s and 80s the financial world started taking a much more short-term view. Nuclear power plants have such a huge up-front cost that you aren't going to see returns for decades. When the market wants numbers to go up every quarter they're not going to finance something that won't make a profit for 20 years.
That's why we have governments though, for the long time low return infrastructure, like power grids.
Somehow we are willing to spend billions yearly on new roads but can't be assed to build a new nuke plant once a decade to grow power production.
If only it were as exciting as the shitty startups that sell for millions a few years after being founded despite never making any profit...
The number of people who still think nuclear power is a manageable risk in any capacity is really depressing. We still have no idea what to do with all the nuclear waste we're creating even now. And that's not even considering the impact of having a nuclear plant when you're in a war.
the impact of having a nuclear plant when you’re in a war
Ukraine seems to be fine, beyond Russians digging up their own fuck up dirt from the past to dig trenches
The entire French nation begs to differ. Look at that map! Power generation alllll over the country, not tucked in an unpopulated area or clustered in one spot ‘just in case’.
Then look across the border at Germany. The CND and Greens did a number on then generations ago, and Russia has kept up the fear over nuclear so they were able to keep Germany dependent on Gazprom. Until Ukraine.
Which has... What to do with waste disposal?
Also russia has kept up the fear of uranium?? The biggest exporteur of enriched uranium?
The problems with nuclear power aren't meltdowns, but the facts that it often takes decades just to construct a new plant, it creates an enormous carbon footprint before you get it running, it has an enormously resource-intensive fuel production process, it contributes to nuclear proliferation, it creates indefinitely harmful waste, and even if we get past all of that and do expand it, that's just going to deplete remaining fuel sources faster, of which we only have so many decades left.
It's not a good long term solution. I agree we should keep working plants running, but we can't do that forever, and we still need renewable alternatives - wind, hydro and solar.
And it wasn't some nebulous group of NIMBYs that worked against nuclear power, it was the fossil fuel lobby. I don't know why people keep jumping to cultural explanations for what is clearly a structural issue. The problem isn't some public perception issue, but political will, and that tends to be bought by the fossil fuel lobby.
Also there is good science on why we actually can switch to entirely renewables: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/23/no-miracles-needed-prof-mark-jacobson-on-how-wind-sun-and-water-can-power-the-world
Thank you for providing a bigger picture
Re: Remaining fuel.
If we built breeder reactors we could use the spent waste fuel to power the entire US for 1000 years. That runs into plutonium existence problems, but it's a political problem, not a resource problem.
However, I still agree with what you've said. We should limit our nuclear footprint to key isotope production, but we really shouldn't be doing that until we've gone full carbon neutral.
The problem with nuclear is it gives fossil fuel giants a free pass to try speedrun killing the planet before it even arrives.
If we plan for nuclear, we plan to do nothing for 50 years.
The greens are principle over matter.
Yeah, principles.
The principles that it won't be profitable for 50+ years if at all.
And it will mean we are stuck with fossil fuels for just as long.
So I'm all for doing anything to survive, preferably sometime in the last 50 years.
Exactly. It’s not about building new ones, that’s incredibly expensive with modern Western safety standards. But at least keep the ones already built running as long as it’s safe. Germany really fucked up with this due to populism
I’ve got solar panels on my roof, and being Dutch windmills are in my blood. But I’m also not blind to the reality that both wind and solar will only get you so far. And there’s already a lot of opposition to wind farms - they ruin the view, endanger birds and there’s health concerns due to noise and shadow projection.
If we just build even one nuclear powerplant, we could basically just… not do wind. And we’d have pleeeenty of power for the coming energy transition, change to electric vehicles, etc.
But noooo… nuclear is scary. Especially to the people who only cite Fukushima and Chernobyl in regards to safety. That’s the same as banning air travel because of 9/11 and the Tenerife disaster. Nuclear power is safe, cheap and we owe it to the planet to use it wisely instead of more polluting alternatives.
Nuclear is not cheap.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelized_cost_of_electricity
Its expensive to build new bespoke massive, built on site reactors. I'm not arguing for more of them I'm saying lets run them for their full service lives as they were so expensive to produce. However if we are discussing new installations i'd love to start making a lot of small modular light water reactors in factory conditions. Economies of scale.
Its cheaper than climate change.
Even the link itself mentions how it’s not really a good metric to use as it doesn’t factor in whole lot of externalities. I.e coal is cheaper, but when it creates air pollution that shortens your lifespan, is it worth the tradeoff? Nor does it factor in things like energy density: a nuclear power plant is far smaller than the amount of land needed to put up enough wind turbines to match its output.
Basically… LCOE looks like a neat gotcha, right up until you look past that first diagram.
https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2022/nuclear-wasted-why-the-cost-of-nuclear-energy-is-misunderstood
Power from nuclear plants in Ontario is some of the cheapest to produce in the province, because the plants have been running for literal decades.
You know what’s scary? The existential threat of climate change.
Absolutely that’s scary. Heck, we’re seeing the effects of it every day. If more nuclear means less coal and other polluting options, I’m all for it.
Are you really saying that to a Dutch? They are the first ones that get affected by rising sea levels, don't worry, they know it's scary.
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