Capitalism creates its own gravediggers : memes

[-] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 9 points 21 hours ago

Oh, the sharpening of that French tech for just such occasions.

[-] NutWrench@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 day ago

Communism A system of government where the country's wealth is concentrated into a small, ruling class of billionaires, who use the news media they own to keep the lower classes fighting with each other while they . . . the rich . . . run off with all the farking money.

Oh wait. that's capitalism. I don't know how I got those two systems confused.

[-] Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago

I disagree, I think socialism can and will beat capitalism eventually.

[-] supertrucker@lemmy.ml -1 points 6 hours ago

And a strongman dictator usually beats socialism

[-] leftytighty@slrpnk.net 2 points 4 hours ago

true the world's capitalist countries are not susceptible to this

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 day ago

This meme isn't saying Socialism will not prevail. Rather, it's saying that even though Socialists can't individually beat Capitalism right now, as Capitalism decays Socialists increase in number and Capitalists weaken in strength, making Socialist victory more probable over time.

[+] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee -7 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Beat or being able to flourish once the Goth Galadriel is gone?

Because historically the revolutionary forces (the one toppling the bourgeoisie) are extremely shitty governors (just continuing mass murdering & plundering which kinda makes sense if you think how & what they have been through).

In very few historical instances of regime changes all the previous actors as well as anyone involved in the revolution were prohibited in forming the new structure. This helps a lot to actually change the system.

You wouldn't want to move from a czar to a dictator, thats long term the same bullshit, only makes things better in short term.

Same with any oligarchy, if it exists and has power than it matters little what kind of regime it technically is.

Edit: I might have chosen poor words but I didn't mean that the ideologies behind revolutions make for poor government, just literally the force of a few 100 or 1000 people directly involved in the forceful part of the revolution. The fighty-fighty people.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 hours ago

Because historically the revolutionary forces (the one toppling the bourgeoisie) are extremely shitty governors (just continuing mass murdering & plundering which kinda makes sense if you think how & what they have been through).

Historically this is false 👍

[-] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 0 points 4 hours ago

No, I meant the immediate people involved in the revolution, those often don't fair well & don't last long (eg people in a party, not necessarily main headline names). Iirc Russia changed almost everyone in charge in the 20s & 30s to a more stable structure afterwards.

In such system changes the country often goes through another (lesser) system revolution a few years after the first one (when the focus is to just keep shit running) & it's better that people involved change at that point too.

Like what happened with Robespierre (~Jacobins), the early two or three years under Lenin, and I think Slovakia or Poland when they transitionv away from communism they forbid running for office to anyone that held any official power under the previous regime (the same people that formally facilitated the end of communism since it as that kind of revolution).

What you showed is what happened after after that, so the point of revolution. And I couldn't agree more with that. My point was not in that. It's that you need admins and regular politicians to run any system smoothly, and the few 1000s of people revolutioning arent usually the best at tirelessly debating a monetary policy or what road laws to use.

(Oh, the "plundering" part - yes, perhaps the wrong word to use, I meant that fairly literally, irl taking things, not doing it in an organised legal manner which is how "the 1% gets to exist" – and you can se that clearly in the Russia chart too, 90s capitalism was the framework for that, so "paper" not raiding rich houses)

[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

Long-windedness is the soul of wit.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 day ago

Read Marx, everyone, especially people that don't think they need to.

[-] The_Terrible_Humbaba@slrpnk.net 4 points 10 hours ago

I would like to add David Graeber to that, and Kropotkin even. I don't mean to start a snowball effect that turns this into a huge list, but I feel like not enough people (especially the average person) know about them; especially Graeber who is a lot more modern.

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 2 points 9 hours ago

Kropotkine was a sweetie.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 day ago

Speaking of, a new translation of Capital I just dropped.

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago

Is a free pdf available?

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 day ago

https://annas-archive.org/md5/abebaa739c328a6b12f7e42c1e5f25d0

[-] slacktoid@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 day ago

Annies archive.

[+] MalumCaedo@lemmy.world -8 points 1 day ago

yeah...23 pages from 1848 surely have all the right answers for the problems of a globalized economy and a society which is so fed up that it is creating its own problems.

[-] davel@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

😂 The three volumes of Capital alone are about 2,000 pages, then there are Marx’s other works, and Engel’s works, and Lenin’s works, and onward. Hundreds of thousands of pages.

Das Kapital is the most cited book in the social sciences published before 1950

[-] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

Marx is one of the most quoted thinkers ever, and this comes even from the newspapers which are hostile to him lol.

[-] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 5 points 1 day ago

He's not talking about the communist manifesto, he's talking about Das Kapital. If you don't care to read it there are YouTube summaries such as this one . If you want to get straight into the meat of the subject you can start from chapter 4 and if you think it's all stupid take the 5-6 minutes to listen to chapter 7 so you'd at least know where socialists are coming from when they say capitalists are stealing your money.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 day ago

23 pages? What are you referring to? Either way, what Marx analyzed is still relevant, even in his day overproduction led to crisis. Lenin took his analysis further once Monopoly Capitalism became the standard, but the same principles apply.

[+] MalumCaedo@lemmy.world -6 points 1 day ago

Marx manifest is 23 pages long. And i wouldn't take Lenin as someone to refer to...his "red terror" says enough. Of course one could say that doesn't mean he was wrong about other things, yeah but where does that leave us?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The Communist Manifesto isn't what I'm talking about. The CM is a worker pamphlet, not an explanation of Marxism. The Principles of Communism is a much better introductory work, and for Marx himself, Wage Labor and Capital as well as Value, Price and Profit are excellent texts describing Capitalism. I would also add Socialism: Utopian and Scientific for an introduction to Historical Materialism, and the failures of Utopian Socialists like the Owenites.

Lenin is absolutely worth reading, he was the leader of the first genuine Marxist state, and his contributions to Marxist theory are critical. Specifically, Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism furthers Marx's analysis into the modern era of Monopoly Capitalism, aka Imperialism, which Marx was only alive to see the very beginnings of before he passed away.

[-] seapat@lemm.ee 2 points 11 hours ago

Do you mind explaining to me how monopoly capitalism is aka imperialism?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 11 hours ago

The best way is reading the text I linked over it, which includes proof, analysis, and far more information than I can put in a single comment.

However, the extreme shorthand, is that competition results in monopoly, and monopoly seeks new international sources of raw materials and labor that is cheaper, using predatory loans and exporting industrial Capital directly.

The US, for example, has huge influence over the IMF, and makes the bulk of its value by producing in the Global South and lobbying to keep wages low.

[-] MalumCaedo@lemmy.world -3 points 14 hours ago

That sure is a lot of stuff to read and i bet its dry lecture. To be honest, i won't start looking into them, so thus far you have me. Maybe it's ignorant but Lenin, for me, goes in the same pot as Stalin and Mao and the baddest of them all from Austria. I don't know if there are good ideas in their writings/ methods/ ideologies...what i know is that these are people who abused their power. They ordered people killed or at least restrained who wouldn't comply to them...so i don't know if their works and deeds are a thing to build upon.

I not very educated on the matter but i'd think that "Post-growth" in capitalism maybe is a solution or at least a way to a solution?

Capitalism sucks, yeah. They steal from you, yeah. Thing is that this happens in every system as long as humans are involved. So maybe we as a hole have to go through somekind of capitalistic-cataclysm, which i don't want for me or my kids, but has to happen none the less to come up with something neither Marx & Co. or capitalists envisioned as of yet.

[-] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 4 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

They ordered people killed or at least restrained who wouldn’t comply to them

This is what states do, they are tools of repression. You've basically limited yourself to reading from a subset of anarchists and no one else with this statement alone.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

That sure is a lot of stuff to read and i bet its dry lecture.

It isn't, haha. Pretty easy to read!

To be honest, i won't start looking into them, so thus far you have me. Maybe it's ignorant but Lenin, for me, goes in the same pot as Stalin and Mao and the baddest of them all from Austria.

Bold claims for someone who refuses to even look at the text, let alone read it. Additionally, equating the Communists to the Nazis is in fact Nazi Apologia.

I don't know if there are good ideas in their writings/ methods/ ideologies...what i know is that these are people who abused their power. They ordered people killed or at least restrained who wouldn't comply to them...so i don't know if their works and deeds are a thing to build upon.

Do you know that? You evidently don't read, so where do your ideas come from? Imagination?

I not very educated on the matter but i'd think that "Post-growth" in capitalism maybe is a solution or at least a way to a solution?

What on Earth is "post-growth Capitalism?" Where did you pull that from, and why do you already think it capable of being a solution?

Capitalism sucks, yeah. They steal from you, yeah. Thing is that this happens in every system as long as humans are involved. So maybe we as a hole have to go through somekind of capitalistic-cataclysm, which i don't want for me or my kids, but has to happen none the less to come up with something neither Marx & Co. or capitalists envisioned as of yet.

How, exactly, are people "stolen from" in Socialism? You don't know what you're talking about, but you sure do have strong opinions about it.

[-] feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world 6 points 14 hours ago

Honestly, if you've got the time and the capability I would recommend reading at least Capital 1, it's incredibly well written.

[-] Edie@lemmy.ml 4 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

The insomnia is really getting to me, so you're getting it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa fucking read what cowbee gave you.

I not very educated on the matter

Aaaaaaaaaaa. Maybe educate yourself, for example by reading, maybe what cowbee linked.

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

Was there some new supercasper series or something?

[-] WoahWoah@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Yes, the socialists have definitely been winning this epic fight.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 day ago

The point of the meme is that as Capitalism deteriorates, and it must deteriorate, more Workers become aligned with Leftists and at some point there will be a shift from quantitative to qualitative, ie at some level there will be a dramatic change, like the boiling point of water.

[-] WoahWoah@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Cool cool. LMK

[-] TachyonTele@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago

So much winning

[+] ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works -7 points 1 day ago

You guys have been predicting the collapse of capitalism for like 150 years. At some point you have to admit that your theory was wrong and go back to the drawing board. This is just sad.

[-] dessalines@lemmy.ml 5 points 20 hours ago

Capitalism is less than 400 years old, and feudalism took probably triple that to fully die out. These are world-historic processes taking a long time, involving new energy sources, technological developments, and declining surpluses.

Capitalism has had many crackups already, and is now in its late stage in most of the world. Even most of the populations of capitalist countries, when polled, are pessimistic about their future.

[-] Jax@sh.itjust.works 6 points 22 hours ago

The fall of Rome took over two and a half centuries.

Sometimes you need to accept things are broken and move toward fixing them, not blindly stumble forward expecting everything to right itself.

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 2 points 1 day ago

You're not wrong, capitalism has a million failings, but the people running the show always find new ways to keep the status quo. They can buy the system whenever needed, while the masses can, at best, get a free beating from the cops

[-] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 day ago

Capitalism has been struggling with the problem of collapse, and in fact it did from pretty early on in that history you mention, with Italy, Germany, Japan, Spain, and so on. The problem isn't just going to go away, because a system that needs infinite expansion in a finite world necessarily will collapse. It can sometimes "innovate" its way into having more time, and modern imperialism is just such an example of that innovation, pushing much of the poverty capitalism demands into the third world, but that just changes the specific circumstances of the problem rather than eliminating it. The US as we speak is continuously losing its grip on its hegemony as the imperial periphery and semi-periphery develop sovereignty. History will not end.

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