Zelenskyy was urged not to invade Kursk. He did it anyway. : worldnews

[-] culpritus@hexbear.net 50 points 2 days ago

I was wondering how quickly into the article there would be fascist dog-whistling about invading Kursk. 2nd paragraph.

“I felt myself a part of history, because it was the first time since the Second World War Russia’s been invaded,” Sergei, the flaxen-haired trooper, told POLITICO
“I had the most powerful feeling,” he said.

[-] anonochronomus@hexbear.net 28 points 2 days ago

“I had the most powerful feeling,” he said.

That's probably just the Pervitin.

[-] DefinitelyNotAPhone@hexbear.net 19 points 2 days ago

Who could've guessed that trying to invade the world's most infamously uninvadeable region could've ended poorly for a combatant that has a smaller military than its opponent and has been having major logistics issues?

Fortunately for all involved it's not like there was any historical precedent for this being a bad idea.

[-] What_Religion_R_They@hexbear.net 18 points 2 days ago

Good start to the blame game, hopefully NYT article next

[-] UlyssesT@hexbear.net 19 points 2 days ago

zelensky-pain stairs i-told-you-dog

[-] ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

First as tragedy, then as farce.

[-] dkr567@hexbear.net 12 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Gotta one up Israelis in grifting American/western taxpayers' money somehow even with the plan being awful.

[-] NastyNative@mander.xyz 8 points 2 days ago

It’s all fair in love and war!

[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

If the point of supporting Ukraine is to support the international order of respecting borders, then an absolutist interpretation would mean you stop at your border when repelling invaders.

On the other hand, that would certainly result in invaders loading up on personnel and materiel on their side of the border until they reached some critical mass for a re invasion.

A lot of people might not remember the first Gulf War where the international community defending Kuwait stopped at the Iraq border. I think it could be argued that was a mistake on multiple levels, even ignoring everything we know that came after.

[-] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 hours ago

I would say an absolutist would be justified in crossing the border if they offer that land back at the end of hostilities in exchange for other concessions.

Even if Ukraine doesn't reclaim all of their land they could offer Russia kursk for some other equal amount of Ukrainian land in any peace talks.

Otherwise if Russia refuses Ukraine is justified in keeping that land.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 35 points 2 days ago

It's simply not credible for a group of countries responsible for constant invasions of other countries to claim to be defending borders or supporting any sort of international law. The US at this very moment is occupying a larger percentage of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine.

[-] mormund@feddit.org 3 points 2 days ago

That is just what-about-ism. The US doing bad things is no reason to allow other nations to fight imperialistic wars.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 days ago

Nah it's not just whataboutism, this is a conflict between NATO and Russia. NATO is claiming to have some moral superiority in this conflict, but it's very obvious that NATO is fighting an imperialistic war for control of Ukraine.

[-] mormund@feddit.org 1 points 2 days ago

Ah, yes of course. How could I miss how supplying the people of a sovereign nation with weapons and intelligence in a defensive ground war against a foreign invader is building an empire. Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 days ago

Ah yes, NATO is just altruistically helping the right wing regime that the west installed in Ukraine after overthrowing the legitimate democratically elected government. 🤡

[-] mormund@feddit.org -4 points 1 day ago

Even if that were true (and I don't think even Putin is still pretending that this is what his special operation is about), you think the right recourse is to invade that country and attempt to annex it into your empire? Killing hundreds of thousands in a war of attrition? Really amazing peaceful moves from the certainly democratically elected leftist Russian president, bravo.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You don't have to take Putin's word for it, the head of NATO has already admitted this publicly:

The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn't sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm

you think the right recourse is to invade that country and attempt to annex it into your empire?

That's not what the war is about. https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

However, if you don't trust a renowned political scientist like Mearsheimer, RAND published a whole study titled "Extending Russia" that explains in detail why the US wanted to provoke a conflict in Ukraine https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html

Killing hundreds of thousands in a war of attrition?

The war could've been over within a month, but the west sabotaged negotiations. Pretty clear who wants this war to keep going. The war could've been avoided entirely if the west didn't insist on NATO expansion and didn't overthrow the government in Ukraine.

[-] mormund@feddit.org -5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

That is a nice big quote you got there. But it doesn't say anything about right-wing governments, coups or anything the like. And I said, for the sake of the argument I'll pretend with you it is true.

Of course, surrendering is a great defensive strategy. I'm sure WW2 would have been a whole lot shorter if Stalin just capitulated right away. But I've got another brain tickler for you. The aggressor can end a war immediately, by not even starting it :)

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 day ago

It's amazing how people just keep regurgitating these talking points. It's just so incredibly shallow and demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the situation. There is no comparison with WW2 here. In fact, the best comparison to make would be Yugoslavia where NATO recognized separatist regions as being independent, and then had them invite NATO to invade and destroy Yugoslavia. That's the actual model that Russia is using in Ukraine.

[-] mormund@feddit.org -4 points 1 day ago

So you are saying that Russia recognized separatist regions in Ukraine as a front to ultimately destroy Ukraine? And it is ok because NATO does the same?

[-] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 3 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

pungent desperation in this reply

[-] mormund@feddit.org 1 points 3 hours ago

Desperate to do what? Understand their comparison better? Not sure what you imagine my goal is

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 day ago

No, I'm saying that recognizing the separatists regions and then accepting their request for help was the common element. It's quite clear that Russia was not interested in destroying Ukraine as illustrated by the fact that Russia tried to make Minsk agreements for for whole eight years. I don't know why you feel the need to continue making blatantly dishonest statements here. You're not fooling anybody.

[-] mormund@feddit.org -4 points 23 hours ago

Ah, well it was surprising you mention that other part in your comparison so vividly. And I'm not sure where I stated anything at all, aside from the fallacy of what-about-ism in regards to NATO and Russia. The rest you interpreted yourself.

What I don't understand is why "leftists" like you feel the need to vocally support an oligarch and dictator, instead of being able to say that the war in Ukraine is a pointless waste of human lives for which Putin is directly responsible as the aggressor.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 23 hours ago

Talking about whataboutism is just a way to paper over hypocrisy. It's not a real argument. Then you proceeded to make it crystal clear that you are indeed a hypocrite.

What I don’t understand is why “leftists” like you feel the need to vocally support an oligarch and dictator, instead of being able to say that the war in Ukraine is a pointless waste of human lives for which Putin is directly responsible as the aggressor.

Nice straw man there buddy, cause nowhere did I vocally support anything. What you're being told is that what Russia is doing is no different from what the west has been doing, and that the west is just as responsible for starting and continuing this conflict. Apparently that's just too hard a concept for you to comprehend.

The most incredible part is that multiple people in this very thread tried to explain the situation to you, and you just ignore the facts and continue regurgitating the talking points you've memorized. The sheer anti-intellectualism on display is stunning.

[-] mormund@feddit.org -1 points 3 hours ago

Hypocrisy would be if I blindly excused anything NATO did or held them to a different standard. Which, you may recall, I never did.

What you're being told is that what Russia is doing is no different from what the west has been doing

Okay so what Russia is doing is the same as NATO, which is bad because what NATO does is bad? Or is it justified and NATO is also justified in their actions?

And yes I would claim you vocally support Putin and Russia, because you seem incapable of critique of a war that he is directly responsible for. And note that I'm not even claiming sole responsibility in that sentence.

And if you are wondering, I can certainly offer some critique of NATO and the US.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 hours ago

Yes, you literally did that with the example of Yugoslavia. At leat lie about something that you haven't done in this very thread.

Meanwhile, the fact that you see rational analysis for the reasons for the war as vocal support for Putin shows just how utterly intellectually impoverished you are.

[-] mormund@feddit.org 0 points 2 hours ago

Please enlighten me how I defended anyone's actions in Yugoslavia or even mentioned anything about that conflict at all.

Rational analysis, where you are incapable of addressing any wrong doing of the one person that declared an offensive war? Please attack me personally instead of acknowledging that maybe it is not so good to march into your neighbors territory and bomb their cities. But you do you. I'm sure you have your reasons.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

Oh my bad, it was ristoril_zip that was justifying NATO in Yugoslavia, you just kept talking about whataboutism.

Rational analysis, where you are incapable of addressing any wrong doing of the one person that declared an offensive war? Please attack me personally instead of acknowledging that maybe it is not so good to march into your neighbors territory and bomb their cities. But you do you. I’m sure you have your reasons.

Yes, rational analysis as outlined by one of the most eminent geopolitcal researches in US https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war

Using your logic, Mearsheimer must be a Russian propagandist. I'm sure you have your reasons for spreading simplistic narratives about the war that ignore the actual reasons behind it.

[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip -5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

What on earth are you talking about occupying Syria?

Edit: they're misconstruing the 32-country military coalition that's been trying to degrade Da'esh since 2014 as the US military by itself occupying sovereign territory.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State

Some may remember the breathless daily & weekly map updates on the news showing areas controlled by Da'esh changing. Might remember the coalition partnering with various groups of differing militancy & reliability. I think including us (the coalition) fucking over Iraqi Kurds...? I believe because Syria hated them? Or loved them?

So, y'know, absolutely nothing like Russia's completely unprovoked, unilateral decision to invade Ukraine because Putin was afraid of Ukraine getting too chummy with NATO countries, possibility even considering joining NATO.

[-] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 25 points 2 days ago

completely unprovoked

considering joining NATO

Those two statements are in the same phrase... My god

[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip -4 points 1 day ago

So your contention is that Nation A considering joining an alliance that Nation B doesn't like - not actually joining, just considering - is a provocation worthy of military invasion?

Jesus what a world that would be.

[-] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 12 points 1 day ago

[...] is a provocation worthy of military invasion?

See, that's an entirely different statement. Threatening to join Russia's geopolitical rival's military alliance while bordering Russia, is provocation. The acts in Donbas since 2014 are provocation. Is it "worthy of military invasion"? I don't believe so. The proto-fascist Russian government is clearly not acting entirely out of pure will and self defense, and I'll be the last to defend it since I have loved ones directly suffering under that government. But it's important to frame things correctly, and yes, threatening to join NATO while bordering Russia is a huge provocation.

Particularly, NATO has no history of defensiveness (as far as I know it has never intervened for the defensive purposes it's supposed to uphold), but it has a history of offensiveness. Yugoslavia and Libya can both attest to that, and extra-officially (technically not NATO interventions even if many NATO members participated one way or another), countries such as Iraq can also attest. The case of Iraq is a perfect example of what unprovoked invasion in modern times is, and we are still forced to see libs fall heads over heels for a fucking Dick Satan Cheney endorsement to Kamala "most lethal army in the world" Harris.

So, yes, when a country bordering you chooses to join a historically aggressive military alliance that openly challenges you, that's huge provocation. And it's important to state so when we talk about the war in Ukraine.

[-] What_Religion_R_They@hexbear.net 24 points 2 days ago

always a wake up call comment to make me realize im on the other world news comm

[-] anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net 13 points 2 days ago

It's startling and confusing at times, honestly.

I feel like I must be misreading or having a stroke until I figure it out.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 22 points 2 days ago

The US is in Syria against the will of the legitimate government of Syria that's recognized by the UN. This is an invasion and a violation of the sovereignty of Syria. Period.

The fact that you rushed in to try and paint it as something other while bleating about Russia’s completely unprovoked, unilateral decision to invade Ukraine says everything we need to know about you.

[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip -5 points 1 day ago

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree as I see a fundamental difference between a multi national joint military operation targeting international terrorists and a unilateral military operation aimed at reconstituting the USSR.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

There is no fundamental difference. International law states that countries are sovereign and cannot be invaded by other countries. Just because a bunch of bandits, who are currently involved in a literal genocide I might add, get together to do it in no way legitimizes it. The fact that you think might makes right is legitimate in one case and not the other shows that your position is hypocritical, and can be safely ignored.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 19 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Do you live in a cave? https://www.barrons.com/news/damascus-says-us-occupation-of-syrian-territory-cannot-continue-e97c5e5a

[-] DoiDoi@hexbear.net 25 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Look at this comment they made yesterday

I’m conflicted about it, but the fact is one reason the US has been so successful in leading the world in relative peace (as compared to WWII and before, not compared to the ideal) is because we have so much capacity for violence in our back pocket.

Radioactive levels of ignorance.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 days ago

truly

[-] ristoril_zip@lemmy.zip -3 points 2 days ago

Updated

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 days ago

proceeded to further embarrass yourself

[-] CyberMonkey404@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago

then an absolutist interpretation would mean you stop at your border when repelling invaders

Amusingly, that was the interpretation I've heard some years ago over at reddit from poles malding about USSR marching to Berlin and kicking nazis out of their country in the process.

[-] Cagi@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 days ago

"The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten"

Napoleon Bonaparte

Not only do you need to strike at the enemy's territories and hold it to win, you need to threaten to keep it if you want to restore your original borders. Going to the peace table with enemy cities your pocket is a classic way to negotiate for your own land back. The more Russian land the Ukranians take, the more likely we will see a restoration of old borders.

[-] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago

Funnily enough you quote the dude that first planned to ally with Russia but get swept into the prototype of modern geopolitics and attacked it, not staying within his fortifications, and that led to him and his empire being utterly and completely crushed. Though unlike current followers of the evolution of the same geopolitical strategy, he at least didn't had ample historical precedence for this madness.

World News

Rules: