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I know data privacy is important and I know that big corporations like Meta became powerful enough to even manipulate elections using our data.

But, when I talk to people in general, most seem to not worry because they "have nothing to hide", and most are only worried about their passwords, banking apps and not much else.

So, why should people worry about data privacy even if they have "nothing to hide"?

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[-] GodOfThunder@lemm.ee 20 points 1 year ago

Edward Snowden, a former National Security Agency contractor and government whistleblower, has been credited with the quote "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say". Snowden has argued that privacy is a fundamental right and that without it, individuals cannot have anything for themselves. The "nothing to hide" argument has been used to defend the collection and use of government data beyond surveillance and disclosure, but critics argue that it is inherently paradoxical and that what is hidden is not necessarily relevant. Snowden has also stated that the burden of justification falls on those seeking to infringe upon human rights, and that nobody needs to justify why they "need" a right.

[-] anaximander@feddit.uk 3 points 1 year ago

One thing I often see is people not understanding the difference between secrecy and privacy. They ask why it matters if you're not doing anything wrong. A UK government minister actually said "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", and then backpedaled when someone pointed out they were quoting Joseph Goebbels. The analogy I've seen is simple: I'm sure you don't do anything illegal in the shower, but I'm also pretty sure most people would be uncomfortable with a law that required you to have a police officer standing in you bathroom with a video camera to record you showering, just in case.

The other thing is the assumption that any information about you that the government actually has about you will only be used against you if you commit a crime, in which case you'll deserve it - if you're not a bad person then it's fine. This is a double fallacy.

First, we've seen that information can be used to do all sorts of things regardless of wrongdoing - if someone knows enough about you, they can use it to manipulate you. I don't mean blackmail or whatever, although that's an option. I mean that with a clear enough picture of your preferences and biases and habits, someone can tailor their actions and information to your psychology and make you think whatever they want you to agree with.

Second, it assumes that you won't ever commit a crime because crimes are bad things and you're not a bad person. This overlooks the possibility of you being mistakenly accused while innocent, but more importantly it overlooks the possibility that the government will change into something that holds different moral values to yours. Even in the modern world we've seen places outlaw abortions, or criminalise homosexuality, or pass laws on what religions you're allowed to follow. If that happens in your country and you find yourself on the wrong side of whatever arbitrary line they've now drawn, you may regret giving them so much information about you - information that lets them identify you, prove that you broke their new rules, and ruin your life in so many ways.

The default principal of any exchange with governments, businesses, or any entity taking your information should be to give as much information as is required for them to perform the operation you're requesting of them, and no more - and wherever possible to only engage with those entities that you trust to have that information; a trust that they earn by a verified and unbroken track record of ethical and trustworthy behaviour.

[-] Little_mouse@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

"But, when I talk to people in general, most seem to not worry because they “have nothing to hide”, and most are only worried about their passwords, banking apps and not much else."

Sounds like they have passwords and banking apps to hide, You should demand their bank account and credit card details to verify that they have made no illicit actions.

If they point out that they have no reason to trust you with that information, that's when you point out that police, government, or corporate groups are made out of people just like yourself. They might have some codes of conduct, or a vetting process, but it just takes one person malicious or careless enough for you to be severely impacted.

[-] sebi@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Edward Snowden remarked:

Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.

There is a wikipedia article regarding this argument

[-] Jocho@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

This is a nice quote, however it misses the goal of the original post.

For example, I fall into the group of people that don't care about their digital privacy, but I fully support anyone who decides to go invisible on the internet.

[-] BeautifulMind@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Maybe you don't think you have anything to hide today, but what about the future? Millions of women gave their period-tracking apps that kind of personal/private data when Roe was in effect because at the time, states couldn't use it to prosecute women who miscarry or get abortions. Now that Roe is gone, that data is out there and can't be recalled.

By the same token, everyone who went out and got a 23-and-me genetic test gave their genomes to private companies who can legally sell that information to insurance companies that can use that information to hike their premiums or terminate their policies if they think your genes predispose you to some expensive-to-treat condition. Also those family trees don't lie about whose kids are the product of adultery, hahahahaha

You do have things to hide in the sense that they're nobody else's business.

Also, some countries have established digital privacy as a right (in particular, EU countries) and that's not just about protecting your dirty stinky secrets, it's also about preventing social media being weaponized as political or information warfare vectors based on private information obtained without your consent. (the same profiling used to target relevant commercial ads to you is also usable to target information warfare and propaganda to your susceptible relatives, and they vote in addition to giving racist rants at holiday dinner)

In other words, your privacy is intrinsically valuable- if it wasn't, exploiting your private information wouldn't be a multi-billion-dollar industry

[-] DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago

I feel like most replies here are missing the point.

The entire premise of the statement is that privacy is about defending your dirty secrets. When people say "nothing to hide" they're really saying "I'm not going to post about anything I want to hide", but that still misses the point.

For me it's the subtle principles of advertising. I don't want to be advertised to, at all. I certainly don't want some blog to know what adverts I'm likely to engage with, because that is simply none of their business.

That's it. If that doesn't bother some people, that's entirely fine. I'm a bit weird, and the whole idea of being tracked to figure out what things I might want to buy makes me very grumpy.

[-] deepdive@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

You're not weird ! Quite the contrary, we are on the right path to fight those greedy corporation !! To bad we're the minority ://!

[-] KreekyBonez@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

I hate ads, with a burning passion, but when I get stuck with one that's wildly irrelevant to my interests, I know that I'm doing something right. Feels good to be a blank spot on the algorithm.

[-] AeonFelis@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Even if you have nothing to hide yourself (which, as other commenters said, is very unlikely), and can be certain you'll never have anything to hide ever (even less probable), there will be other people who do have something to hide. That does not mean they are evil (though some are) - maybe they are fighting for a cause, or maybe they are persecuted minorities, or maybe governments and/or powerful organizations will want to bring them harm.

These people, being mere humans, have some minor secrets in their past or present that can be signal-boosted by a malevolent agent to seriously hurt them, their reputation, and/or their social standing. And even if they did mange to obtain the level of sainthood that the have-noving-to-hide folks seem to possess - their perfectly normative personal information can still be used to dox them or retaliate against them in some other way.

If you care about these people and/or any cause they may be fighting for, then you don't want them to be the only ones who demand privacy. Because:

  1. They will effectively be holding a big "I have something to hide" signs, being the only ones that opt to protect their privacy.
  2. Governments and companies will have an easy job giving them very small privacy protection, if at all, since there will be no pressure from the general public for privacy protection.

This will make it much easier to persecute minorities and to retaliate against activists, making society as a whole much worse for everyone.

[-] mdrw@discuss.online 1 points 1 year ago
[-] mdrw@discuss.online 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Not the only response but I haven't seen it in the comments and it's a simple answer without room for a semantic argument. People with that kind of attitude will often be dismissive of any response over three words in my experience 😂

[-] cuerdo@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Ask them how much they make or their medical record.

Tell them you will pay google several cents for that info.

[-] Lemmylemmylemmy@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago

Ask them to poop in front of everyone at work.

Every, single, time, they have to go.

[-] parachaye@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Saying "I don't need privacy because I've got nothing to hide" is like saying "I don't need free speech because I've got nothing to say".

[-] glassware@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago

Yet here you are, posting on a website that doesn't allow absolute free speech.

[-] charonn0@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Cite historical examples of seemingly innocuous and public information falling into the wrong hands.

e.g. The Nazis used demographic records (marriages, births, christenings, etc.) in conquered lands to ID Jews and other "undesirables".

[-] cynetri@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago

And (if they're American) when they go "well, MY government wouldn't do that!" counter with how Meta has already, numerous times, gotten people arrested for talking about getting abortions on Facebook

[-] Ambiorickx@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Ask them for their social security number, mother’s maiden name, favorite pet, favorite teacher, high school mascot. It should start to dawn on them

[-] chagall@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ask them for their kids’ social security number, DOB, etc. I’ve done that a couple of times and it always gets a reaction.

People are less concerned about themselves, but generally very protective of their children… and rightfully so.

[-] lazylion_ca@lemmy.ca 0 points 1 year ago

I may have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I want it on public display either.

[-] rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 1 year ago

Just ask them a bunch of indiscreet questions. Do you watch porn? What category of porn turns you on the most? Do you think it's appropriate to have sex in a room on the ground floor without curtains? What? You own curtains? What is your salary? What's the amount of money in your savings account? Why do you have so many loud disagreements with your partner? Don't you like visiting your in-laws? What's inside the drawer at the bottom, next to your bed? Have you had any embarassing and cringy moments in the last few years you'd like to share?

Of course this is only the beginning. It's not like the corporations collect data and then don't do anything with it. You'd also have to be okay with them deducing information about you. Try to use that information to manipulate you into giving them attention, buying the stuff they want you to buy. That system is in place to nudge you into thinking what the algorithm wants you to think. App developers are actively trying to make the apps more addicting so you spend more time with them... People just get exploited with the help of all of that data.

If people really are that tame and have no secret fantasies, no sensitive data, no shame, no personal shortcomings they'd like to forget... And they don't care about the annual security breaches of big platforms people use willingly, but that information then gets used by people who use it to send you spam or impersonate you and trick your grandma to send her retirement to some scammer... And they like to be shoved around by big corporations like cattle, used to fuel the capitalist system... ...I myself tend to leave them alone. There is nothing that can be done at this point. Those people are lost, and they don't want freedom for themselves.

[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

I don't think this works, because any sexual stuff they don't think google / Mega Corp cares about. Which is true google doesn't give a shit if you have sex without curtains, they only care if you are shopping for curtains.

And the rest of the questions only matter if you are running for office or something which again 99.9% aren't, so they don't give a shit.

I'm all for privacy, but the argument I have nothing to hide except bank account passwords etc is hard to argue with, when it comes to the average person, because the truth is that they don't matter and most likely no-one cares about their specific data.

Most data is only valuable in mass, unless you're being criminally investigated or something.

[-] ode@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 1 year ago

but the argument I have nothing to hide except bank account passwords etc is hard to argue with

It's simple to argue against: any and all data points are either potential threat vectors, or will in aggregate paint a better picture of the individual they pertain to, for the data's possessor to use as they wish. A default-deny policy for data creation/access makes as much sense for individuals as it does workplaces.

[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I get it, I'm telling you why it doesn't resonate with 99% of people. Once you have to explain threat vectors people shut it down and call you a paranoid person.

Again, I don't agree with it I'm just telling you why I have nothing to hide is so pervasive.

[-] faberfedor@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

I’m all for privacy, but the argument I have nothing to hide ... is hard to argue with, when it comes to the average person, because the truth is that they don’t matter and most likely no-one cares about their specific data.

In that case, please post your real name, tax id (SSN in the States) and annual household income.

N.B. None of this information is private.

[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago

Yea obviously not that... Like I said bank account stuff everyone gets.... Google isn't harvesting bank account numbers.

Privacy and not getting hacked is not the same thing.

My point is that most people just keep their banking safe and don't care about the rest, hence "I got nothing to hide" attitude

[-] fernandu00@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

I use a monetary argument.. If my data can become revenue to the company then I must have a part of this revenue ..if they are not paying me for my property (my data) then I should keep my data from them

[-] overzeetop@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Additionally, and more deleterious, if a company knows you're looking to take a vacation, or to buy new shoes, they can increase the price that is served to you across all of your internet searches. This is the counter to the privacy argument which separates automated/computer knowledge vs personal knowledge. It's one thing for someone to be reading all of my Gmail, which is creepy and invasive, vs Alphabet scanning my email and building a consumer profile on me so that all of my searches are tagged and referenced to extract maximum value from my online purchases, which isn't creepy or invasive (imho) but may materially affect my quality of live which is bad in a totally different way.

[-] redditcuntsz@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

You should just fucking drop it. That's what you should do.

I don't care that ADs are targeted vs blasted. I don't care that meta sells advertising data. Meta provides a service I like and I have no fear that it will be used against me in any meaningful way that will reduce my quality of life.

Just stop. At this point you are quickly approaching Jehova witness level of cringe.

[-] rufus@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Wow. You read the news and know people have been arrested on the basis of some data that was wrong or misleading? You know companies hire psychologists to make their apps more addicting to you? This isn't something just in theory. Look it up! They're actively manipulating you, right now. And they care for their own goals, not for your quality of life. You know you're fine with all your sold data, credit scores etc as long as the score is good? There are people who lost their job without being at fault. Good for them they now can't finance a replacement for their broken down car to get to job interviews.

[-] Camzing@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Do you have curtains in your house? Can I look at your income tax records and all purchases made on your visa and bank card?

[-] AlboTheGuy@feddit.nl 0 points 1 year ago

One very good point I heard once is this: You have nothing to hide NOW, but what if a government raises that somehow views you as a menace? What if you don't agree.

What if something that you can't change about yourself, say your religion, your sexual preference etc. This has happened before and is happening right now in some countries.

[-] PearlsSwineEtc@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

When the child killer knocks on the door and asks where the kids are, you don't tell him the truth.

[-] kava@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah I bring this up. We are installing the mechanisms for which some crazy future totalitarian government can exercise absolute control over the population.

With the technology we have today, we can make 1984 a reality. In fact, Orwell would be surprised at just how effective we could be. We're even working on the mind reading at this point.

[-] Pyrozo007@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 1 year ago

What you need to hide now is not the same as what you will need to hide in the future.

[-] Ondergetekende@feddit.nl 2 points 1 year ago

In the 1930s, the Netherlands kept detailed records of ethnicity for every citizen. No one thought this was unnecessary, as ethnicity wasn't something that could ever be used against you.

That line of thought ended when the Germans took over in may 1940. Unfortunately those records still existed, and aided the most efficient genocide in human history. Without those records, many jews, sinti and Roma would've been able to deny their ancestry and evade being murdered.

Privacy from government and corporations will one day save lives.

this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2023
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