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this post was submitted on 11 Mar 2024
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Why wait and see when you can just take their word at face value? They won't.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-calls-voluntary-emigration-gazans-2023-11-14/
Yeah and it shouldn't. Gaza is a lawless place. There is no legitimate government there. Somebody has to rebuild it. Who's going to do it?
Palestinians?
The hubris and condescension from you people. Maniacal.
By what? By who? Hamas is the de facto leadership in Gaza. It was popularly elected, and then popularly canceled all future elections. More than half the world recognizes it as a terrorist organization. It will not have its own state. Not now, not ever.
Hamas has also proven that it does not care one iota about Palestinian people or it wouldn't have built their tunnels under people's houses, and it would surrender and end this bloodshed.
Maybe one day the US cancels elections, then I guess it would be okay to blow you, your parents, your children, and your dog into oblivion. You probably voted for this, so you deserve to die with no dignity under piles of rubble and pain.
You can't imagine how ashamed of yourself you will be when you realize what kind of genocide you were cheering for all day and night.
Impossible. Conservatives are not capable of shame.
I think this person is a Democrat, which imo makes it even worse.
I'm a left wing two-time Bernie alum but thanks.
Just wasn't born yesterday and recognize Hamas for what it is.
I literally have the same position as most of the democratic party.
I think Bernie would yell at you if he heard this BS that you write everywhere.
Sure you are.
Tell Donny hi for me
Gaza is under control by Israel's Blockade
I disagree with the conclusions of this pro Hamas nonsense. You have all the evidence right there.
Ya know stoning "infidels," assassinating Palestinians who want peace, cancelling all future elections. Nobody is going to miss Hamas when it is killed to the man. It's a far right Islamist terrorist group and part of the much large pan Islamist movement whose motto is "death to America and death to Israel." The singular difference between Hamas and ISIS is that they disagree as to who should be in charge of the world, Iran, the Syrian caliphate, or a new caliphate in the Levant after they literally genocide all the Jews.
And don't bring Egypt into this.
Food goes through. The mass starvation everyone has been warning of for five months hasn't happened. The daily death toll is dropping like a stone.
may sound authoritative and conclusive to you but I went to school with some of these people and know how shitty they are with facts and reasoning when they get emotional, which is what Hamas counts on. They should surrender. Period.
There won't be a lasting ceasefire until it stops fighting and by fighting I of course mean targeting Jewish civilians and using Gaza and everyone in it as its personal suit of armor.
All this shit you have to say about the evil Jewish empire is only to say that Israel must stop defending itself. That's why for all your links you cannot give a rational explanation for Hamas's plan on October 7 that didn't end in a massive civilian death toll. 30,000 is awful but Hamas decided with the consent of Gaza to put every one of them in harms way and then rolled the dice with their lives.
I love reading this BS. Hamas sucks but they don't stone people. Why do you feel the need to make shit up?
If you stopped constantly dehumanizing palestinians for a second, maybe you'd recognize Hamas began due to the terrible material conditions of Occupation, and has the goal of ending the occupation. Maybe you'd even recognize collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Hamas is very different from ISIS, but they both were born out of Terrorism from Israel and the US respectively. Hamas wants an end to the Apartheid, not genocide. That claim is both untrue, and holds no weight when Israel is currently engaging in genocide. This is about the state of Israel being founded on ethnic cleansing and it's most recent ethnic cleansing campaign. Not Jewish people, stop being antisemitic by thinking they're the same.
People Claim a Majority of Palestinians in Gaza Elected Hamas — Here's Why It Isn't That Simple
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
Hamas was born out of pan Islamism. Israel didn't invent it. It's hundreds of years old.
Pan-Islamism and Pan-Arabism were both movements born out of anti-colonialism and opposed western political involvement, but they are not the same and have different history. There is no monolith in the middle east. Neither a Muslim nor an Arab Monolith. If you think all Muslims or all Arab people think the same you're just being racist.
Hamas, while associated with the Muslim Brotherhood in the past, is not the same as the Muslim Brotherhood.
Again with the link spam of things I already know.
I don't think that all violent Islamist extremists are the same. I think they are substantially the same, not distinguishable in meaningful ways. As I said, the only difference is who gets to be the caliphate. For example, while ISIS and Hamas leadership are formally at war, Hamas just can't stop getting its fighters to join ISIS, too.
That's the thing, the links I provide are to show exactly what you're getting wrong.
Th really don't though. You're drawing your conclusions from the facts and I think your conclusions are shallow and poorly reasoned, and I think that you often cite to other people who draw the same conclusions as you because it makes you feel good.
We don't have to agree it's fine. I can still respect you. You're disgusted by 30,000 deaths, mostly innocent civilians; you're probably a very decent and justice-minded person, instincts that must serve you well. They are my instincts too, and serve me well.
I'm not interested in the chicken or the egg debate. though because it's not relevant to the next hundred years. I'm interested in not having a hot war with Iran and not having the worlds dictatorships laughing while they wipe democracies off the map, which is what happens if Hamas gets its way. Start there.
Obviously Hamas is not going to get its way. Its outmatched in every sense except it's martyrous zeal, and your instinct is what they count on as their only path to continued existence.
Again I ask, what did they think would be the result of October 7?
Advocating for a One-State or Two-State Solution is not "wiping a Democracy off the map," it's advocating for Palestinian people to have basic human and civil rights. If you think that Israel committing Apartheid or ethnic cleansing are 'shallow and poorly reasoned conclusions' then you haven't taken a look at the facts. This has nothing to do with instincts, it has to do with media literacy. That's why as a serious source to learn more about the conflict, I point to Ilan Pappe or Avi Shlaim or Nur Masalha. They are magnitudes more knowledgeable about the history of Israel-Palestine.
We can find quickly in the wiki:
The answers to this conflict are not in the history. I don't care who came first, the chicken or the egg. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the oldest artifacts and recorded history in the entire region are Judiac.
Hamas is in charge of Gaza. The thing preventing Gaza from having what it needs is Hamas. They can't follow zero international laws and norms whatsoever and expect to be treated like a legitimate state actor. They are not. Hamas is a terrorist organization and the present hostilities will not end until Hamas is gone. Hopefully they stop taking innocent people with them.
The answers? No, the context is. That context being setter colonialism, occupation, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. No ancestral claim to any land justifies ethnic cleansing of the native population living on that land.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1947-49 was deliberate, the concept of Transfer is fundamental to zionism. It didn't matter that the Palestinian leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State.
The Israeli occupation of the rest of historical Palestine in 1967 was deliberate. For half a century, Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip has resulted in systematic human rights violations against Palestinians living there. with the goal of further annexation while excluding Palestinians.
Gaza has been under occupation, Hamas has been internally governing Gaza since 2007, under the Blockade occupation of Israel. Hamas is a resistance movement that has done acts of terrorism, yes. That doesn't change the fact that Hamas and other Armed resistance groups are the only ones fighting back against the Israeli occupation, a right which they have under international law. That doesn't exempt them from war crimes, which is why you see Human Rights Orgs report on them when committed.
Resistance movements only get bigger as the oppression worsens, like it is now in both the West Bank and much more so in Gaza.
What do you know about what it's like to live under Israeli occupation? If you don't understand that, you'll never understand why people choose to violently resist the occupation.
I really don't see how any of this is relevant.
Gaza is not under occupation. Occupation is something that one country does to another. Gaza is not a country. Therefore Gaza is not occupied. See how that works?
Occupation is something that involves an opposing military force. Gaza doesn't have an opposing military force. It has terrorists.
A military force respects international law and wears uniforms, it doesn't actually and for-real target civilians indiscriminately with no pretext of military targeting.
Gaza isn't a country and doesn't have the rights of a country. Period. And it never will be, because of Hamas's visionary leadership. They need to free the hostages and stop treating Gaza and everyone in it as one giant human shield. Where you're from do you have any expressions such mess with the bull get the horns? Live by the sword die by the sword? Don't start nothing won't be nothing? Reap what you sow?
I understand why they resist and have a lot of sympathy with their perceived plight. And I supported a two-state solution until recently, when it became absolutely clear that Hamas will not evolve, and will not permit peace in Gaza as long as it remains. It is a far right authoritarian movement with no loyalty to the people of Gaza. The people there should have fought Hamas instead of Israel, maybe they wouldn't be wallowing in rubble right now.
Ok dude, at this point you must be being intentionally obtuse. I don't know if you're in denial or you just like making up your own definitions, either way maybe you should try proving yourself wrong for a change.
Straight from the wiki. The rules and definitions of Occupation have been very clearly laid out for a long time. And Israel has repeatedly violated international laws for a very long time.
Again, if you don't understand the occupation, the setter colonialism, the apartheid. You will never understand the armed resistance against the Israeli occupation.
Seems like you're not only confidently incorrect, but you also have no interest in learning a comprehensive history about the founding of Israel, the violent occupation, or a potential resolution. Because they are all intertwined. Hopefully I'm wrong, and you'll choose to learn more. Here I have aggregated events that date back to the early 18th century all the way to present day, with multiple sources when I can. I only made that page as a jumping off point. If you are genuinely serious about learning the truth, you need to read the works of New Historians. Ideally multiple of them. I listed out the three I find the most comprehensive in my previous response. Ilan Pappe even has a few books on Audible so you can listen instead of read his works.
Bud I had my share of mid east history and world politics in college. I'm not going to redo the assigned reading, the post grad reading, or the extracurricular reading, because you think you know something that I don't know already. Let's assume I know the full history down to every detail you feel is important.
It still doesn't in any way help to address the present conflict and the present belligerents. So it seems like there's only one reason you'd bring it up and it very much has to do with who the belligerents are.and very little to do with what they've done, and it has nothing to do with interests in peace or humanity, if it's not complete vanity.
I understand there are diabolically evil war criminals in the IDF and Israeli government just as there are in Hamas, and plenty of hate to go around for anyone that wants to join in. My country, too. One side gives them prizes with biblical zeal and conviction, fail not, and the other tries to keep the crimes quiet, or tries them in court and convicts them, some of the time, and has as its current political leadership a party that is very likely to be voted out of office, possibly very soon. Oh no, I can't tell which one is worse, better pick the one that doesn't make the news so sad. 🤡
Give me a break. The time for Gaza to stop living in the ninth century and be a world citizen has passed. Willfully targeting civilians is not a legitimate means of resistance. I can understand it's motivation and understand that it is a criminal enterprise, incompatible with western concepts of representative government and civil rights, and in fact peoplemin Gaza who espouse such concepts get put to death as infidels by religious police. And yet you give Hamas a wholesale pass, not only all that, but also on using the entirety the population of Gaza as human shields and bargaining chips.
That's the starting point. I don't understand why you're looking backwards from here? Definitely not interested in arguing about semantics. But if you keep reading your article beyong the literal first sentence, you'll see I'm getting it from Article 43 of the Hague Convention.
Yet a multitude of international and human rights organizations have considered it occupation because Israel still controls Gaza through military force.
But I'll assume you know more about the conflict than all of them. After all, you did mention that you read some history books. I'm sure they weren't filled with revisionist history.
Not the fucking Israelis.
They expect everyone else to fix what they broke and protect them, while they mouth the hands that feed.
How long would they last without big daddy USA?
Okay then who?
Who what?
Edit: Nvm, I thought this was another conversation.
Israel should pay obviously.
They broke, they pay.
Okay we agree on that. You break it you buy it, as solid rationale as any. I think they not only pay but also have to administer the reconstruction, and that in addition to the work of rebuilding Gaza's physical structures and infrastructure, Israel must rebuild the institutions of Gaza, free of Hamas corruption and Iranian influence.
And Israeli influence
That's fantasy land talk. Laughable really.
Why?
Mainly geography. But also nobody else cares enough about Gaza to spend the time and money. The people that live there have no infrastructure or institutions in place to rebuild, let alone the materials and labor to do the work. Leaving Gaza to fix itself it not an option. Like where would Gaza even get the machinery or lumber if not from Israel?
Hamas's international benefactors only give money if Hamas is fielding fighters and killing Jews. If Hamas is gone, Gaza is just another failed-state, thrid-world hell hole with no natural resources.
I'm not bursting this bubble for you right? Like where do you think this goes from here? Talking about, either a fully militarized border across which nothing travels and the famine everyone is concerned about comes to fruition and the death toll goes from 30,000 to 300,000, which nobody with any say in the matter wants, or Israel takes full control of Gaza for at least some period of time, maybe forever.
Right now Gaza is a warzone. When that is no longer true, it will at least remain under martial law while as the last pockets of Hamas resistance are rooted out and the last tunnels collapsed. It's up to Hamas whether that takes one year or ten years. Hamas is in charge of Gaza and they do not follow any international laws or social norms. They will absolutely not be given a country to do whatever they please.
So because Israel destroyed it they get to pay to fix it, there can be an international coalition that can oversee the funds and the rebuilding.
Israel gets no fucking say at all about it.
Put up a 1km border zone encased on every side with fucking concrete and fill the whole son of a bitch with land mines with remote control machine guns with the only maintenance access on the Israeli side.
Kill anything inside, with solid walls there is no way for innocents to get in accidentally.
Take .5km from each side.
Fucking problem solved.
Let them try hang gliding over that and surviving
Ha. That's amusing dystopian fiction maybe but not a real suggestion for peace, is it?
The whole reason they are fighting so viciously is because they can't agree on the operating hours and zoning regulations of various piles of rocks, way out in the desert, where people go to talk to themselves after they get tired of talking to themselves at home, so they go on a bad vacation and talk to themselves near the actual piles of rocks from their favorite book series, and you want to bury any of the rocks in a kilometer of concrete? That sounds like an obstacle to the rocks and therefore an obstacle to the peace.
🤷
No, the walls are only about 10 foot thick. The rest is land mines
Oh right. Suppose not much difference, relative to the rocks piles.