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this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2023
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I understand perfectly what you’re saying. Antisemitism is a huge problem. That’s not up for debate. There are a lot of stupid people mistaking antisemitism for “pro-Palestine.” Not just anti-Israel—which is the appropriate response— but for legitimate antisemitism.
It’s like third wave feminist-come-latelies that mistake misandry for feminism. That’s not positive nor is it helpful. In fact it’s a problem in and of itself. And yes, this information/political identity literacy needs to be addressed.
BUT. The existence of stupid people does not negate the fact that there is a systematic elimination of Palestinian people by the IDF/Israeli state. You can call that a lot of names, but to avoid likening this atrocity to any historical one for cleanliness of explanation, I will stick to that description: a systematic elimination of a specific identity group from a state/territory. This is the much larger, much more immediate problem that needs to be addressed.
What complicates this issue and conflates these two issues (unnecessarily) is Israel itself, using the shield and cudgel of “antisemitism” to protect itself from MUCH NEEDED criticism and to muddy the waters of this discussion. When you put anyone on the defensive, having to fend off the label of “antisemitic” when they’re trying to criticize the Israeli state for the…well…genocide that it’s perpetrating on the Palestinian people, it furthers the decimation of the Palestinian people.
And, again, to clarify, antisemitism IS A HUGE PROBLEM. And there are a lot of political-discussion illiterates debating this issue in 140 characters or on protest signs—all without much more thought than “I need to be on the right side of this issue”—which leaves no room for the nuance of making this clarification.
Do you see what I’m saying?
There is a place for legitimate criticism of Israeli policy - but I draw the line at calling for the death of Israelis. It isn't criticism; it's just hate speech.
The problem that I'm trying to pull up here is that this is not an isolated incident of a single person posting hate speech. There is a large group of people who celebrated the events of October 7th, and are passing that hatred on to their children through education.
That’s great. Maybe prioritize.
…you’re still not grasping my point, though. And this is the exact problem. I very clearly stated that calling for “death to Jews” or any kind of shit like that is a massive problem. Yeah, that’s antisemitic and antisemitism is wrong. It’s a problem that some people can’t differentiate between criticism of Israel and going after Jewish people. Yeah, it’s a problem and anyone with a brain agrees.
And that’s the thing right there. Amplifying the idiots that don’t know how to be anti-occupation/anti-israel without being antisemitic is propaganda. Why is there an article about this idiot making horrible statements? This article doesn’t try to discuss the nuance that I’m trying to discuss, it’s simply saying, “look at what THE ENEMY is saying! How can you NOT support Israel?!”
The Israeli govt and the lobbyists and all of the nations are all using “antisemitism” as a SHIELD against criticizing Israel/the occupation. They’re amplifying what this 21 year old is saying because it helps to turn public sentiments in favor of Israel/muddies the waters of what is happening.
It’s like the Russian propaganda amplifying the far-right/white supremacist factions in Ukraine so they can say “we invaded Ukraine to rid it of NAZIS!” Does the problem of white supremacy/far right/Nazi sympathizers exist in Ukraine? YES. But to use that as some kind of justification is beyond absurd. ANYONE WITH A BRAIN can see past it.
And ANYONE WITHOUT ULTERIOR MOTIVES won’t repeat that nonsense. The same is true of this issue. Do we need to discuss and rid the world of antisemitic sentiments? OF COURSE! The same goes for far-right/white supremacist/Nazi sympathizing.
These problems exist. They are worth putting energy into. But IN NO WAY are they justifications for the invasion/occupation happening.
Now do you see what I mean?
I posted this article because I knew it was a matter of time for someone to post the Al Jazeera article and it would lack the proper context that this is hate speech, and that the evidence is very much towards it having been written by her.
That happened by the way. I'd link it for you but I'm on mobile now.
My justification for the invasion of Gaza is the actions of Hamas on October 7th and their actions every day since then, not people writing hate speech on social media. What I'm trying to say is that there is no viable option for long term peace so long as hate speech like this exists and their educational system drills it into every single child.
Now do you see what I mean?
Hate speech will always exist. The defeat of the Nazis in WW2 didn’t end antisemitism. It didn’t even end fuckin nazism. The civil war didn’t end confederate sympathies. The fall of the USSR didn’t defeat Stalinism. The war on terror didn’t end terrorism. The war on drugs didn’t end drugs.
So to say, “I support apartheid because hate speech exists” is…genuinely insane. Wars on ideas and behaviors NEVER end the idea or the behavior. And to somehow believe that they CAN, somehow, maayybe this time! work is nothing more than either lying for ulterior motives, or you’re somehow convincing yourself.
Did the war in Afghanistan and the way in Iraq make sense because of 9/11? OF COURSE NOT. There were ulterior motives for those invasions. There are ulterior motives for this extermination. And they’re actually being perpetrated by mostly the same goddamn entities.
Let me just ask, do you now say that you support the “war on terror” and “operation Iraqi Freedom” because 9/11? If you don’t buy into that rationale, then you will have to explain to me how you could possibly be buying into this one.
—also, if I didn’t make myself clear: the bush wars bred ISIS and only served to boost Al qaeda strength/positioning. And the extermination of the Palestinian people is causing a massive surge in antisemitism. Again, as I stated in every single one of my precious comments: THIS IS WRONG, ANTISEMITISM IS NOT THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE TO THIS CONFLICT. But it is very much a response. Terrorism is ALSO wrong, but the war on terror served as the greatest recruitment tool fundamentalist extremist groups ever had. So if your ultimate concern is ending antisemitic hate speech, you’re very much on the wrong side of this issue.
I think you missed the point - there can be no long term peace when either side views the other with a level of hatred that they justify killing innocent civilians and cheer that on.
This is happening on both sides, but this specific incident is a Palestinian woman who has been fed hate speech her entire life, while others around her learned it in UNRWA funded schools and turned around to murder civilians in terror attacks.
Okay…but you could literally characterize either side of this conflict that way. From a Palestinian perspective, the IDF soldiers committing war crimes by intentionally bombing schools, hospitals, and decimating entire bloodlines are perpetrating “terror attacks.” But one is state-sponsored and systematic, being perpetrated by a MUCH stronger force against an occupied peoples, while the other is a violent fundamentalist group that is funded by THE OTHER side of the normal geopolitical lines.
I don’t support Hamas. In fact, I think they’re downright despicable. But that sentiment doesn’t justify Israeli aggression.
As I said, you invoked Oct. 7 and hate speech as your reason for backing the occupation. Did anti-American sentiment and the 9/11 attacks justify the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq? Your rationale is exactly the justification for that war.
I invoked October 7th as the rationale for the war. Not the occupation. Don't twist words. It's unbecoming.
I remember 9/11 quite well. Bin Laden took too long to hunt down, in no small part because of the Iraqi distraction. Afghanistan needed to happen though. It's never been a stable country (Dr Watson's character has been an Afghanistan vet for how many centuries?), but at the time the Taliban were basically a breeding ground for terrorism, just like Gaza is today.
The propaganda on both sides is pretty heavy which is why you need to read into things - like the US running drone flights over Gaza. My assumption is they're using it to corroborate intelligence passed to them by Israel. For example, evidence that Hamas are using hospitals as military barracks, or rocket launchers in youth centers. Even if it isn't made public, the implication from the US not lifting a finger to stop them is that most of what they are saying is true enough that the US is willing to allow it.
But if your personal philosophy is that the US wants Gaza to burn then I don't think we have any common ground for discussion.
But you know that a huge part of Afghanistan’s instability is due…to foreign meddling…right?
But you missed my entire point. Those invasions BRED MORE TERRORISM. It’s been proven, over and over and over and over again that WARS AND INVASIONS against things like “terrorism,” “drugs,” “communist sympathies,” “ideals that don’t work for my foreign policy,” et al. only breed MORE of the thing you’re fighting. You’re giving it a CLEAR enemy, and are literally and figuratively lighting a fire under their asses to grow in strength, fight, and you’re giving them a very loud and clear recruitment strategy.
You know how you’re seeing A LOT of sudden antisemitism? And a lot of islamophobic thinking/acts? And fuckin PRO-HAMAS SYMPATHIES? I know you know, because you brought it up. It’s what’s started this conversation. Well, that is happening BECAUSE of the war you are supporting. You claim to be against this, when your behavior is doing nothing but supporting it’s growth.
THAT is my point.
…I mean, that’s my point, at this point, because you’ve shifted this conversation away from the things I was initially making points about. Like, you’re taking a pro-Israel stance. And I’m just taking a “but look past your preconceived biases” stance. Hink about what your position actually is. You don’t have to be anti-Israel. I’m literally just telling you that if you actually want what you claim to want, you’re essentially acting against your own interests.
This sounds like onion news. "Victims of genocide who wish the same upon the nation that is exterminating them accused of hate speech" - are you fucking kidding me?
Yeah, a localized Hitler is what Palestine should want right now. It's their only chance to survive.