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Israel is bad for committing genocide.
Palestinians are apparently bad for not wanting to be genocided.
Close.
Israel was and is bad for committing genocide.
Hamas is bad for doing a terrorism
Palestinians are apparently bad because the government the majority of them didn't vote for is bad.
The true victims of this war, as always, are the civilians
Hamas is a bad palestinian group.
But palastine minus hamas really holds no fault. Israel is the antagonist between the two nations.
Hamas just just a terrorist response to that. And while terrorism is always bad, israel did actively cultivate that terror group.
Huh, interesting take. I guess Israel minus the settler hardliners is as unfaulty.
Meh... Israel helped make Hamas big, way before they were known as Hamas. Back then they just were an offshoot of the egyptian Muslim Brotherhood organisation. Fatah was/is secular and Israel sought to utilize islamist organizations agaibst Fatah, who they saw as their main opponent. And it worked. There was violence between secular and islamist palestinian organisations.
But -shock horror- the islamists turned out to be a greater threat to israel than the secular fatah.
It's a little like 9/11. I vehemently disavow and condemn the attacks. But on the other hand, you kinda made your own bed so to speak.
Palestinians have a UN recognized right to armed struggle. How do you recommend they carry that out?
Do you mean palestinians in general? Or do you specifically mean hamas?
Cause the answer is different depending.
How do you recommend that Palestinians engage in armed struggle?
Probably by fighting actual soldiers, not bombing civilians and kidnapping children.
Do you recognize the bombing of Hiroshima as a war crime?
Yeah, that was messed up.
Is there any war that was fought in a way you find acceptable?
I don't know enough about wars to say there was any that was completely squeaky clean, but there's a spectrum. Like, Britain killing Germans in WWII probably wasn't as bad as what Japanese soldiers did in Nanjing. It was bad, but not as bad.
The British 100% engaged in war crimes during WWII, including the bombing of the city of Dresden.
Can we agree that those war crimes (while wrong and regrettable) don't mean the British were in the wrong in fighting WWII?
I suppose so. Still, Britain could have fought fair, on the battle fronts, after evacuating civilians. They weren't wrong for fighting WWII in the first place; they were wrong for how they went about it.
One point I saw elsewhere in this thread is that Western military support makes it such that if Hamas were to create actual military posts to fight a fair fight like I was imagining, then Israel would just bomb those places and that would be that. No more armed struggle by Palestinian forces because there would be no more Palestinian forces. So the only way for them to have a chance is to fight dirty, hiding among civilians and such.
Sure, I agree that'd be best. I can't think of a war that hasn't had a reprehensible component; I'm not sure it's possible to entirely avoid civilian casualties.
I don't think we really disagree on much here. I don't think every aspect of what the Palestinian forces are doing is good, but I do think they've been forced into a (literal) corner, where they don't have any choices.
Yeah, thank you for making me think about it some more. It sucks.
Thank you for talking kindly to me! The current situation is very awful.
With exactly the same argument (Hiroshima/Dresden) Israel could flatten Gaza because „war“
I actually don't agree with the U$ bombing of Hiroshima, I just used it as an example that I thought would be easily understood.
I don't think the same applies to the zionist entity because it does not have a just cause for war.
lmaaaaooo
So, specifically palestinians in general?
I think based on what little I know of the region and the style of invasion, guerrilla tactics would likely be ideal. Finding some sort of ally on the global stage to help them argue their case against israels abundant political backing. Make the occupation as inconvenient for israels government as possible, while doing everything they can to shift the global publics opinion into sympathy for their fight.
The current engagement is largely guerilla tactics against military installations.
This is not armed struggle. The Palestinians have a right to armed struggle.
The current engagement bombed a music festival.
That is absolutely part of armed struggle. Look at ukraine, and how its usage of global opinion saved it from a 2 week slaughter fest by giving it the backing of US intelligence. Ukraine perfectly demonstrated how, if you are the underdog losing the war, being able to shift global public opinion of your situation can literally save your life.
Instead, they alienated every nation who had a civilian at that event, gave israel an excuse to declare war and openly genocide their people instead of hide it in inches, made it racially charged by immediately releasing a statement blaming zionist jews and calling for jewish extinction, and gave their political opponents across the globe free and easy ammunition to shut up any pro palestine rhetoric or talking points.
Hamas really fucked up. They gave anti palestine sentiment a free scapegoat target. They are lucky spain is taking the charge to try and distance palestine from hamas on the global stage, because its going to be even harder to shake israel of its massive global backing that it relies on in order to hold on to power.
I sympathize with palestine. Israels government is run by monsters. But this action may be the spark israel needed to burn palestine to the ground, and its very very very hard to un-bomb civilians.
A music festival on the edge of the world's largest open-air prison is not a neutral event.
Courting public opinion is not armed struggle.
We agree that Palestinians have a right to armed struggle, right?
How do you recommend they go about that?
Hahahahahahaha, what??? Proximity to a prison doesnt make it a military target. They would have fucked up just as bad if they attacked the prison. Civilians are still civilians even when you disagree with how they spend their time. Unless you think the bombing of hiroshima was justified?
You were already given an answer. Repeating the question means I will repeat my answer. If you dont understand how the global stage is now a part of armed warfare, you are behind every armed force on the planet.
Ok, you answered that guerilla tactics would be best.
Any guerrilla struggle involves harm (even if accidental) to civilian populations.
If we agree that Palestinians have a right to armed struggle, and agree that they should use guerrilla tactics, why are you not supporting them?
Because that was not a guerrilla tactical strike? Nor was it accidental? It was a war crime.
They intentionally targeted civilian gatherings. Thats not armed struggle, thats cold blood killing.
Are you claiming the US was justified in its atomic bombing of hiroshima? By your given criteria, it also falls under armed struggle. Do you not believe it was a war crime?
I do consider it a war crime, I used it as an example because that's not common in Western spaces.
I'll be happy to concede to you that the attack on the music festival was reprehensible, if you can concede that the Palestinian attacks on military installations were appropriate and called for.
Are you, like.... stupid?
My stance from the beginning was always that palestinian attacks on israeli military installations is justified. Theyre being invaded. The problem is hamas commited a war crime that gave israel the justification to begin unquestioned and uncovered genocide.
Could you get your head out of your ass and stop trying to justify war crimes in your slobbering hunger to see the shadow of a drop of isreali blood? Youre continuing hamas's work of making israel look good, and palestine doesnt need more enemies.
You called a music festival a non neutral event, for fucks sake. Are you trying to demonize palestine? Is that your goal?
A little, yeah.
I didn't see your support for Hamas' actions in this thread, sorry if I missed it.
The zionist entity is constantly commiting war crimes. I don't think it needs an excuse.
I don't think the zionists constantly bombing children makes them look good.
I don't agree that it was a neutral event, but I'm happy to concede it as wrong for the sake of the argument here.
Oh gross are you just an antisemite?
Israel as a nation is the problem, not jews bud. Get a life
People like you are the reason israel is going to win, and I weep for your palestinian victims
No, I am not. I have not said anything antisemitic, and will not.
I agree that settler-colonialism, as represented by Zionism, is the problem. Judaism is not synonymous with the zionist project.
I'm happy to see that we've wound down your arguments to where you're grasping at straws and making up things to argue against.
We'll see.
Zionist has been an antisemetic buzz word for almost a century, bud, but it does explain why you were so happy to see the music festival victims.
And why you seem so keen on hamas, despite their recent announcements of goals which include a racial jewish clensing.
Sucks that you are using palestine as an excuse for your garbage. Normal folk are upset at civilian death.
I agree with most of what you've said, but just throwing in my 2 cents that I've never heard Zionist as an antisemitic buzz word, I've only ever understood it to as a way to differentiate Jews who support the Israeli and it's settler colonialism project, and those who don't. Maybe antisemitic use it, but I don't think it's a common dog whistle (like globalist is, for example).
You comment that you are a fucked up person if you find it ok to kill civilians.
Without raping and murdering civilians, to start? Fuck Israel, but that doesn't make Hamas the good guys.
Is there a war that you think was fought justly?
Oh fuck off with that hexbear lemmygrad shit. I'm not talking about war as some nebulous concept, I'm saying raping and killing civilians is bad regardless of if you've been wronged or not. If that's a controversial opinion to you, I have nothing more to discuss.
And in every real war that has been fought, including the allies in WW2, heinous shit has happened.
Do the war crimes of the allies in WW2 mean that they were wrong to fight?
Ah yes, I forgot about that time Churchill bombed a German music festival and raped the survivors.
See, that's the exact kind of whataboutism I'm talking about. Two wrongs don't make a right, and frankly I suspect the only reason you give a shit is because hating Israel is such a hot tankie talking point right now.
Let me guess, Palestine needs to throw off its oppressors, but Russia's invasion of Ukraine was a totally justified military operation?