The funny thing: both memes are true.. We live in a fkin disgusting world where every system oppresses. People who think capitalism works for the people are equally braindead as the ones claiming China and Russia are communist utopias.
Sure Marxist communism could be great, but it yet has to be archived
Nobody thinks that Russia is communist. However, whatever you want to call China, it's objectively better than what we have in the west. One thing to note though is that 87.6% of young Chinese identify with Marxism, and the Communist party has 95 million members.
China lifted 800 million out of poverty, and in fact China is the only place in a world where any meaningful poverty reduction is happening. If we take China out of the equation poverty actually increased in real terms:
China also massively invests in infrastructure. They used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century, they built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade.
90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans.
Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it's the most populous country on the planet. People in China also enjoy high social mobility.
Unsurprisingly, government satisfaction in China is extremely high and unmatched by any western democracy:
Numerous studies and surveys also show that people who actually live in China feel their country is democratic in a sense of having a government that works in the interest of the majority. In fact, far higher percentage of people living in China feel their system is democratic than those living in US
Finally, China is the only major country that's actually doing anything meaningful to transition off fossil fuels. Once again, making absolutely stunning progress this year alone.
So, yeah, China might not be an utopia, and they have plenty of problems. However, it is a country where life continues to improve with each and every decade, that doesn't suffer from constant economic crashes the way capitalist shitholes do, and where people are happy and optimistic about the future. Seems like looking at what China is doing and learning from that might be a good start for people in the west.
It’s also fascinating to me how the same people who like to do purity tests for China claiming they’re not actually communist are also the ones who’ll defend places like US or Canada saying yeah it’s not perfect, but it’s the ideal of the system that matters.
It’s such an incredible example of cognitive dissonance. People able to recognize that their own system doesn’t live up to the ideal they have in their heads, but still treat it as a valid interpretation of the idea, but when it comes to a system they dislike then the same logic doesn’t apply all of a sudden.
i think your projecting something here or making a deliberate strawman, read my first sentence again and tell me where I am "able to recognize that [my] own system doesn’t live up to the ideal [i] have in [my] heads, but still treat it as a valid interpretation of the idea, but when it comes to a system [i] dislike then the same logic doesn’t apply all of a sudden."
Nobody is projecting anything here or making ant strawman. You made a false equivalence claiming that both US and China are bad. I gave you concrete examples of China continuously improving lives of its people, and being pretty much the only place in the world where major quality of life improvements are happening for the majority. If you can't understand that, then what else is there to tell you.
Do you think China is a Marxist utopia? Because if not I don't know why you are so butthurt by my comment, if yes my point stands.
Not sure what you are trying to proof here, to me it seems like you have two simple categories in your head: "pro me" and "anti me" and you assume everyone in the same category must be the same. I remotely mention that I don't think China is heaven on earth and you start to talk about how I must be mentally derailed or something.
I think calling the us democratic is far fetched, butcallingg China democratic is not very close to the truth either.
Nah I don't think China is an utopia. I just think it's far better than what US offers. If you can't understand that one thing can be better than the other without either being some sort of an utopia, what else is there to say.
If you cant understand that
"People who think China is a communist utopia are idiots"
And
"There is NO good aspekt of China AT ALL"
Are two different sentences and you don't need to start calling me mentally derailed or make site long fanboy essays about China, what else there is to say?
Except I never said either of these things. This is just you fighting a straw man.
This you?
It’s such an incredible example of cognitive dissonance. People able to recognize that their own system doesn’t live up to the ideal they have in their heads, but still treat it as a valid interpretation of the idea, but when it comes to a system they dislike then the same logic doesn’t apply all of a sudden.
As is said, it seems like you are working with only two categories in your head: "pro China" and "pro us"
That one can criticise one of them without liking the other doesn't seem to fit in your head
don't forget the US-backed Filipino dictator Ferdinand Marcos Sr.. he oversaw a borderline ethnic cleansing campaign against moro muslims in mindanao, had thousands tortured and killed and sometimes had their mutilated bodies strewn on public areas(this is what we call salvaging), created an oligarchy that lives on today and, with his wife and children and billions of public funds, was flown out of the country by orders of Reagan when his regime was toppled by the 1986 revolution.
and now his son, who continues to deny his father's crimes and refuse to return the billions they stole from us, is president.
The Global South should give capitalism a try one of these decades. It paid off for Asia and Europe...
idk man, the Philippines has been trying capitalism for a while and it only empowered the aristocrats here even more and turned them into oligarchs.
You used so many words to say that you're clueless.
Leftists and ad-hominem attacks, name a more iconic duo
The fact that you're using ad hominem incorrectly here really underscores my point.
You called me clueless based on a single sentence in an attempt to dismiss what I said. I didn't use 'ad hominem' wrong, lol.
Yeah you did, ad hominem would be me saying you're wrong because of a personal character trait. I just stated a simple observation about you. Like I said, clueless.
Oh, huh! I didn't know it worked like that! If I had, I could've just pointed out that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and have a cartoonish worldview, and I could have avoided all the trouble of making actual arguments. That's so much easier!
Alternatively you could've spent the time to educate yourself instead of making vapid comments on a public forum exposing yourself as an ignoramus.
I've been reading and studying for decades, and yet somehow your worldview remains inconsistent and incoherent to me.
I'm sure it's my fault.
If you read or studied anything for even a few days you wouldn't be spewing utter nonsense here.
Its not an as hominem attack kid ^^ Ad hominem would be: you are an idiot and therefore wrong. What he says is "you write wrong stuff and are therfore an idiot"
Huge difference
So, you're saying that the Global South (either Africa or South America) has made major, concerted attempts at creating effective capitalist states?
There's a few examples. Australia, of course, though Leftists will obviously discount it.
Chile very deliberately adopted capitalism, though it was under an oppressive dictator. Even so, it's #3 on the list of South American countries for per-capita GDP these days, and is topping the list for political freedoms.
Uruguay, with it's famously beige recent politics, is #1.
Of course, you have Indonesia, which has been doing pretty well recently. I wonder why? (/s)
Malaysia and Singapore are technically in the northern hemisphere, so they don't count I guess...
Most of South America has historically swung radically back and forth between left and right (yes, in part due to US pressure). There's a leftward swing again. Let's see how it goes this time! Good news is that if it fails, they can just blame external forces yet again.
and now your making a strawman argument. do you try to play some sort of bogus-argument-bingo?
What is said was: "what a did was not an ad hominem atack"
now your comment starts with: "So, you’re saying that the Global South (either Africa or South America) has made major, concerted attempts at creating effective capitalist states?"
and you even dare to start with: "so what your saying is ..... "
no thats not at all what i said, i didnt mention the globale south, i didnt metion capitalism, i didnt even agree with OP on his meme.
but thats what you argue against. Do you really not see this or are you a troll?
Well this is a blast from the past. I can't even load the context anymore.
I was engaged in an argument, and staying focused on the argument instead of getting sidetracked by semantics. But anyway, you claimed "it's not ad hominem, he said you were wrong therefore you are stupid!" That rests on the assumption that I was wrong, so I was assuming that was your assertion.
I think. This was, after all, months ago, and apparently the account I was arguing with got deleted or something?
Yeah, just saw i had unread messages and replied.
My point was that you are using ad hominem wrong.
It would be an ad hominem Argument if he would take your personality/looks/person as an argument against your talking point/what you say.
This is not the case here. He argues against your talking point/what you say and uses that as an argument against your person.
It doesn't matter what side of you both is right content wise, its not ad hominem either way, as you botth argue about the information itself. (Plus making [unnessesary] assumptions about each others personality based on the opinion they have in the information)
As homin is ONLY if you use the person saying the opinion against the opinion.
If you use the opinion the person says as an argument against the person, that something totally different and quite logic frankly.
For example: If trump says: poc are violent
Ad hominem would be: this is wrong BECAUSE trump said it.
Normal arguing is: trump is saying this, therefore he is a racist/dumb/wrong.
Two very different things.
And atacking others for caring two much about semantics when you make false (semantic) allegations is another sign of bad discussion style IMHO
I have no hard feelings about this thread, but it bothers me when people are discussing in awaty that is bound to fail, so I wanted to clarify this
First of all, capitalism is very obviously the model of relations in majority of Global South countries such a Brazil, India, Colombia and many others. The fact that you can't even name these countries says volumes.
However, whether these countries are capitalist or not is missing the point entirely. The reason Global South is poor has to do with the western capitalist empire having colonized these countries and continuing to brutally exploit them by stealing labour and resources out of these countries to prop up western lifestyle. The two books I linked in the post details the atrocities the west has committed against these countries in the name of capitalism.
India and Colombia are both in the northern hemisphere. Anyway, they're not exactly enthusiastic capitalists.
Western empires weren't even really capitalist at the point that they colonized Colombia or India. And they've been gone for ages (nearly a century in India, much more for Colombia)...you think the wealth of the US, Europe, Australia, Canada, Singapore, South Korea, Japan, etc, are all being extracted somehow from India and Colombia and the rest of the Global South? By what mechanism? They don't export a lot aside from raw materials, and even there they're not exactly top of the list. So...how are capitalist countries living on extracted labor and resources? Are they piped through secret underground pipelines?
Bad things happened in the past. Some continue to happen. That's true. Doesn't change the fact that communism is a stupid system.
Go read the link I gave you explaining the definition of Global South, it's not based solely on the hemisphere. We're also talking about colonialism that's happening today not some ancient history. However, much of the colonialism absolutely did initially happen under capitalism. The British empire being one of the biggest colonialist projects in history.
Maybe spend the time to minimally educate yourself on the subject you're attempting to debate here instead of opnining about things you very clearly don't have any clue about?
The fact that you think communism is a stupid system is really just the cherry on top.
Careful! By including more of the world in the Global South, you're gonna start seeing more and more thriving capitalist countries, which kinda underlines my initial point.
You know that Hong Kong (occupied by the evil British!) provided the inspiration for Deng Xiaoping's U-turn? Now it's a joke to call China communist, and it's GDP per capita looks like this...
Yes, Britain is capitalist these days. No, it was not a modern capitalist society in the 1700s--or at least, it was only just emerging. India was given to the East India Company by edict of the King.
Maybe spend the time to minimally educate yourself on the subject you’re attempting to debate here instead of opining about things you very clearly don’t have any clue about? The fact that you think communism could ever work in the real world is just the cherry on top.
China is not a capitalist country, and the only joke here is that you think it's not communist. One simple test that shows how wrong you are is to compare how China and India developed with India going the actual capitalist route. China also doesn't suffer from the economic crashes that happen every decade under capitalism. If you actually want to educate yourself then you should watch this informative video about China https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT7Th2aV0wM
Maybe spend the time to minimally educate yourself on the subject you’re attempting to debate here instead of opining about things you very clearly don’t have any clue about? The fact that you think communism could ever work in the real world is just the cherry on top.
You're like a poster child for the Dunning-Kruger syndrome here.
Thank you! I saw the anti-communist one earlier today and was so sick of seeing the same old iPhone vuvuzela type arguments on here.
The sad part is that people just keep believing these tropes that have been thoroughly debunked at this point, and they just keep regurgitating them completely uncritically. Thankfully, seems that younger people are increasingly starting to question things.
in my experience teenagers are communists, socialists, and anarchists. it’s mostly gen Xers and boomers who love capitalism
There is a huge gap between "teenager" and "gen x" 🤣😭😭😭
As a millennial it was nice to be the forgotten one for once!
Good point, updated
