Tell that to the tankies. I'm tired of communism being associated with them.
I stick to the original plan: moneyless, classless, and STATE-less. 🏴
You don’t know your Marx? socialism-transition-communism
Marx, therefore, further refined the concept of a “transition society” and introduced the idea that the development of communist society would take place in two phases. In the first stage, “socialism” as he called it, the commune state was still necessary both to defeat all attempts at counter-revolution and to reconstruct the international economic system on an egalitarian and planned basis.
Marx: the only moral revolution is my revolution
The only moral revolution is one by and for the people, with the working class playing a vital role in driving societal change.
Moreover, one need not look far to find instances of so-called capitalist "Revolutions" supported by the United States, which often resulted in the rise of authoritarian dictatorships. For example, Fulgencio Batista's regime in Cuba in 1933 and the tyrannical rule of President Rhee Syng-man in South Korea are separate cases illustrating this trend. Additionally, history records numerous coups and regime changes in Latin America, alluding to a broader pattern.
It's crucial to acknowledge that capitalist economies, exemplified by countries like the US, have at times allied with and propped up dictatorships, fascist movements, and ultra-nationalist regimes.
When examining the actions and consequences of historical revolutions, it becomes apparent that revolutions aligned with capitalism have, both in the past and present, been more numerous and have encountered moral complexities and violence. One might argue that this predominance is partly driven by the capitalist motives associated with imperialism, which facilitated the diffusion of their economic model.
God I am just legitimately bored with all of history being viewed through this particular Marxist lens. France and the US heavily influenced Marx's revolution framework, not the other way around. You can make a pretty strong argument that Marx's fundamental ignorance and misunderstanding of these events significantly influenced his fundamentally broken revolutionary model, which has very obviously held back his largely sound economic theory.
Yes, the cold war interventionalism by the US was very often bad. Geopolitical forces in the new nuclear era must have been pretty nuts, but I'm not going to defend most things done in the name of liberal democracy which forces autocracy onto others. To be honest, as a democratic socialist, I happen feel the same way about socialism as well. You will never free people by creating a dictatorship, be it of the proletariat or otherwise.
Dude, dictatorship of proletariat doesn’t mean what you think it does.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/sep/x02.htm
When reading Marx please keep in mind that not only did he write in German, which has been translated… but if you have read his works he often heavily utilizes foot notes to explain what he means be certain things and at times will take an entire section building up an argument that is later summarized into a more concise statement. My first reaction to “dictatorship of proletariat” was negative, but reading more about his meaning is important.
Did Marx get some things wrong, sure however, while I will never say “everyone has to read this” I will say that “everyone who wants to oppose Marx should actually understand it to a level that probably requires reading”
I'm quite aware of this interpretation and have read plenty on the topic. It is nearly undeniable that in practice, revolutionary communist movements have legitimately produced dictatorships quite often. People need to stop making excuses for Stalin and Mao. The world deserves a better class of communist, in the same way it deserves a better class of liberal.
Like, have you read Lenin yourself?
"Civil war gives the proletariat practice at arms!"
Are you fucking kidding me? You cannot possibly be more glib about violence, or more boorishly modernist .
Forget it, you said you are a democratic socialist right? Don’t fight loosing arguments about history with people. Shut them up with this one argument.
“I will defend every seemingly communist country and their actions, only after you defend every capitalist nation and all of their actions. Simple enough right?”
I'm not interested in defending any atrocities anywhere. Or making tyrants into folk heroes.
My goal is simply to find a single leftist space on the internet which doesn't just pretend like a century's worth of real academic criticism of democratic centralism and associated revolutionary praxis doesn't really exist, and anyone who expresses such criticism must simply be poorly informed and hasn't read enough... Lenin. It's misplaced and undeserved elitism at its finest. Or just a weird revolution fetish, it's hard to tell sometimes. If you can feel my eyes rolling through the screen, it's because, as I said previously, I'm tired of having this same conversation over and over again.
If they say some shit like “Well I’m not arguing for another trail of tears, I just think the economic system of capitalism is better”
Just respond with “Good, so your alignment with a type of economic system or model still leaves plenty of room for variations on policy🤔”
Marx was too idealistic. He didn't account for what happens when you put people into power of this "dicatorship of the proletariat". Most people who get into power are not going to willingly give up power. You'll end up with self-proclaimed communist countries that are either stuck in this transition phase indefinitely, or end up abandoning it in favor of state capitalism.
No shit they're still in the transition stage. They are still defending against counter-revolution instigated by capitalist world powers, and have not yet overtaken capitalism as the international economic system. Are you unable to read, or are you just being intentionally obtuse?
Also, you talk a lot of shit about AES countries being forced to engage in capitalism for their survival for someone who also engages in capitalism for your survival. If you've got a better way, I'd love to see it.
Ah, I see you think yourself an expert on Marx. When he said this was he not meaning that instead of the people being under the dictatorship of a small privileged class of capitalists (see the plutocracy of many capitalist nations) he wanted the entirety of the people, in particular the working class to have control over their own lives, labor, and common interests?
Idk, but it sounds like you think you have read more of Marx’s literature and understand Marx better?
Or perhaps you are arguing that power will always be abused by individuals and thus we shouldn’t resist it and those that currently hold it in the form of capital…
in which case…
I never expect perfection in a human society, but I know for damn certain we can do better than what we do now and the improvements we can make are towards a more equitable society best expressed by socialist and communist thinkers alike.
I'm saying that the transition phase being authoritarian is a mistake. Power always corrupts people, and the only way to make sure a worker's revolution doesn't end up failing is to implement a democratic transition government. Everyone gets a vote, and can run for and hold office. And anyone who has ever owned or managed a large bussiness or has ever accumulated a net worth of one million USD (or equivalent amount in other currencies) or more is banned from holding office. Worker's rights should be entrenched into a constitution, and cannot be redefined unless 3/4 of the people agrees on it.
That's how I think it should be. Not some "communist party" that would become the new bourgeoisie as soon as the old one is eliminated.
transition phase being authoritarian is a mistake
Your understanding of communism is fundamentally flawed... Democracy is indispensable to socialism.
Away with this anarchist nonsense!
Saying a state is Communist is shorthand for asserting that it's on the path to achieving Communism. It's an uncharted path with many obstacles so just saying "X government did this bad thing therefore it's not communist/socialist" is very unhelpful, and it really only makes any sort of sense in the context of arguing on the internet
It’s an uncharted path
No, it's not. This is thoroughly charted territory. It just inevitably leads to more capitalism.
Right side should read tankies, not communists.
"Communists"
most "communist" countries is just socialist it is a simple misunderstanding
To be honest, they are more communist than capitalist countries.
Name five.
Name five what? Things that make communist countries more communist than capitalist countries?
Just 5 communist countries. I can easily name 25 capitalist countries but only 5 communist countries would be enough for me to shut up.
Truly communist countries? As in perfect communism? That doesn't exist, as well as truly capitalist countries, that doesn't exist as well.
I'd say the US is close to perfectly capitalist, if you have enough money you can just rent legislators and call that "lobbying" (as opposed to renting legislators and callying it "bribing" or "corruption", which isn't much better tbf).
Maybe, but are they more communist than they are capitalist?
You can't be "more communist-er" than something - you either are or you aren't.
Yes you can. You could organize certain aspects/fields of the economy differently, injecting communist ideas into otherwise capitalist countries. So a country where everything is subject to a "free", capitalist market could be calles less communist than a country, where for example the development and maintenance of public infrastructure is organized and funded by a government, be it democratic or authoritarian.
The stance that there is only pure capitalism or pure communism is propaganda used by both sides in order to prevent reforms.
injecting communist ideas into otherwise capitalist countries.
No, you can't. What you are describing is merely using faux-leftist ideas to protect capitalism from itself by throwing more scraps at the working class - that is all.
propaganda used by both sides in order to prevent reforms.
"Reform" is how capitalists protect their power and privilege from working-class revolt. "Reform" is always used to protect the status quo from desperately needed radical change. "Reform" almost never infringes upon the power and privilege of capitalist elites. "Reform" is a vital tool in the wealthy's arsenal when it comes to class warfare.
"Reform" is not change - it is used to prevent change.
If you're talking about China, no, not really. If you're talking about everyone else... depends... I'd say mostly.
Every country is a mixed economy. Capitalism/Communism as ideology is dumb (like most ideologies). The closest to a fully capitalist country was probably Somalia in the 90s.
I wish everyone would embrace this view so we could start talking implementation details instead of the endless ideological warfare. These capitalists and communists might as well just make a fucking church out of it already, so much dogma.
I have gotten into it with tankies on lemmy.ml on this topic at length. If you are only criticizing historical communism or historical capitalism then you are guaranteed to be fighting a strawman. These ideologies are not even fixed or singular even within the source material, much less in practice. Yet so many people seem unable or unwilling to even engage on conversation about first principles if it doesn't cleanly fit inside their geopolitical head cannon.
How dare you make this not black and white!
LMAO red fash isn't more communist than northern Europe
What is red flash?
